ValuJet 592 Capt. Candy Kubeck

Don't disagree with you or Doug.

This thread was about someone being shocked at the actions being taken against a scab and specifically her mother. My point was that not only are such actions taken, but they are inevitable given the mechanism of dehumanizing the target. It's how it has always worked and always will. It has nothing to do with how noble the cause is. Strikes are war.

Calling a mother to gloat about her daughter's death is not something many ALPA member's would do. But some will, and it's a lot lower than crossing a picket line. And while ALPA won't endorse such activity, they will condone it, and it is part of the "history" that they hope will keep everyone in line.

So it's nothing to be shocked about or even acknowledged by most union members. It's better left in the shadows.

Unions are nothing without loyalty no matter how it is obtained.
 
"Perhaps it is ironic that Candalyn Kubeck became an object of such contempt; she always wanted to do the right thing and she wanted to be liked, her mother said. But she craved an airline career so badly that she crossed that
picket line and, as a result, was terrorized. I'm not saying I agree with what she did. But if that's not courage, I don't know what is. "

Her ALPA member husband and her family discouraged her from going to Eastern. I wouldn't call it 'courageous' but a desperate attempt to get hired anywhere because she 'wanted it so badly'. She made this decision fully aware that there would be consequences for the rest of her career. That's not courage, that's stupidity.

As far as the scab violence goes: the people who commit these acts are the scum of society. Just because they have not crossed a picket line does not give them the right to break the law to prove their point. While not 'scabs', they are 'scum'. You can only hope what goes around truly does come around and they will all pay for their actions.
 
I have to agree with flyover on some of his points. The term "scab," to me, is meant to de-humanize the people that haven't honored the strike and make it easier to more or less persecute and hate them. They're reduced to names on a list, so it's pretty easy to threaten or bully them if someone so chooses. I'm not a member of ALPA, or any other pilot unions (yet), but I have been in my fair share of unions. Some of them were good, and some of them were more or less puppets run by the company.

Every person that crosses a picket line has made the decision to do so, and they must live with those consequences. As far as the people at other airlines flying struck work, they REALLY have no excuse. In that case it's obvious the company went around the strike to contract those routes out, so ignorance on the pilot's part shouldn't even be a factor. If they pay any attention to what's going on in their career, they KNOW it's struck work. The people I worry about are the poor, first year, starving FOs. Yeah, they shoulda seen it coming and saved up some cash, but that's kinda tough when you're flying for Mesa on peanuts. Let's say Mesa goes on strike, and one FO has a decision to make. Do I cross and black ball myself for the rest of my career, or do I stand with my fellow pilots against our collective mistreatment. Well, if this guy has a family and is living paycheck to paycheck that decision just got really tough. If he honors the strike, he's more than likely gonna have to dump his career (that he probably loves, otherwise he wouldn't be working for peanuts) and work at Home Depot to keep food on the table. His other choice is to ally with JO and the evil empire to keep flying to feed his family. Let's say he chooses option B.

Fast forward a few weeks/months, and the strike is over. Now, he's officially a scab. All of his fellow pilots (and pilots at other airlines) carry around a list with his name on it. He can't commute anymore since he can't get a jumpseat, and the odds of him ever leaving Mesa are pretty slim, too. Hard core union guys threaten him in the hallway, and he gets phone calls in the middle of the night doing pretty much the same thing. No one knows the "why" of what he did, they just care that he did it. To me, THAT is what dehumanizes a scab. No one cares why they did it. I'd be more lenient with someone that crossed a picket line if they were in financial trouble and had no choice than someone that was looking for a quick upgrade.

Not saying that *I* personally would take that route. To me, the terrorizing after the fact just isn't worth the few dollars I'd be making during the strike. I'm just illistrating the de-humanization point. Note: this example is not meant as Mesa bashing. Feel free to replace Mesa with your favorite airline and "JO and the evil empire" with your favorite airline management team.
 
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She made this decision fully aware that there would be consequences for the rest of her career. That's not courage, that's stupidity.

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Kind of a side note to my novel above.....

If someone DOES decide to cross the picket line, then they should accept those consequences instead of trying to roll blame off on the industry. Otherwise it's like trying to blame the rest of traffic for your car accident. You were still driving, you made the decision, you caused the accident. It's not right to make the decision and then pretend it wasn't your decision to make.
 
Here's my deal.

If I'm part of a union that goes on strike, and I do what I know I'll do, which is honor that picket line, I am making some serious sacrifices for the team.

If someone thinks that he's above making those sacrifices, you can be damn sure I am not going to be friendly towards him.

Am I going to threaten to harm him or kill him? Hell, no, that's unacceptable behavior.

But let's just say that if I were working with him, other than hello, goodbye, and the conversation required to perform the job, I wouldn't say anything to him.
 
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Sadly our own pilot union, ALPA put the almighty dollar ahead of the concept of honoring picket lines when they allowed SCABS from Continental Air Lines back into the union. Interestingly enough the Continental pilots got to vote on rejoining ALPA. The ALPA rank and file didn't get to vote on the matter.



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Which is exactly why IMHO, ALPA holds little credibility with me in this regard. Like any other political organization, talking out of both sides of their mouth.
 
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Here's my deal.

If I'm part of a union that goes on strike, and I do what I know I'll do, which is honor that picket line, I am making some serious sacrifices for the team.

If someone thinks that he's above making those sacrifices, you can be damn sure I am not going to be friendly towards him.

Am I going to threaten to harm him or kill him? Hell, no, that's unacceptable behavior.

But let's just say that if I were working with him, other than hello, goodbye, and the conversation required to perform the job, I wouldn't say anything to him.

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What if that person was your life long best friend?
 
What I find particularly ironinc about this is that ALPA, the same organization that condemns these so called "scabs" just recently admitted the entire Continental Airlines Pilot group into their membership. For those you who don't know, the CAL pilots when on strike back in the early 80's. Some people crossed right away. As time went on, more and more pilots crossed. To my knowledge, the strike never officially ended. It just became a moot point. So, in effect, every pilot who ever got hired into CAL from then until they were admitted to ALPA is, by ALPA's own definition a scab. But I guess all that dues money was just too much for ALPA to pass up.
By endorsing CALs return to ALPA, should not every ALPA member be considered a scab?
 
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Here's my deal.

If I'm part of a union that goes on strike, and I do what I know I'll do, which is honor that picket line, I am making some serious sacrifices for the team.

If someone thinks that he's above making those sacrifices, you can be damn sure I am not going to be friendly towards him.

Am I going to threaten to harm him or kill him? Hell, no, that's unacceptable behavior.

But let's just say that if I were working with him, other than hello, goodbye, and the conversation required to perform the job, I wouldn't say anything to him.

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What if that person was your life long best friend?

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Personally, I wouldn't care if it was my Mother. Regardless of the industry that you're in, scabbing isn't cool. It's not!
 
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What I find particularly ironinc about this is that ALPA, the same organization that condemns these so called "scabs" just recently admitted the entire Continental Airlines Pilot group into their membership. For those you who don't know, the CAL pilots when on strike back in the early 80's. Some people crossed right away. As time went on, more and more pilots crossed. To my knowledge, the strike never officially ended. It just became a moot point. So, in effect, every pilot who ever got hired into CAL from then until they were admitted to ALPA is, by ALPA's own definition a scab. But I guess all that dues money was just too much for ALPA to pass up.
By endorsing CALs return to ALPA, should not every ALPA member be considered a scab?

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Yup. An interesting dichotomy, isn't it? And one that no one in the union would ever care to address Not surprising though. The organization I work for does the same sort of things......

I had heard about thoughts on Kubeck shortly after VJ 592 happened. I thought it to be pretty low then and pretty low now. No reason to stomp on her grave.

It'd be no different than condemning a Gulfstream grad that dies in an accident.
 
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Personally, I wouldn't care if it was my Mother. Regardless of the industry that you're in, scabbing isn't cool. It's not!

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The CAL strike was a mess. ALPA itself was in a state of confusion about what to do about Lorenzo. From the standpoint of the CAL people it was not a stretch to think they were being asked to sacrifice their careers and the company they loved to a vendetta against one man. Remember at that time bankrupt airlines had not survived. CAL employees were nothing if not loyal to their company. Probably the one thing that made Lorenzo's strategy work was the employees' deep desire to see CAL survive despite his cynical manipulations.

If in the face of all that, with the life or death of your company and career and the catastrophic impact on your family, if you think the decision was black and white for the CAL pilots then by all means condemn them.
 
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What if that person was your life long best friend?

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Someone who is my life long best friend ain't gonna be the kind of person who's watching me survive on strike pay but crosses the line anyway.

Next?
 
Saying she got what she deserved was pretty messed up. I'd gladly take a bat to that person's head whoever said and feel good about it.
 
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Which is exactly why IMHO, ALPA holds little credibility with me in this regard. Like any other political organization, talking out of both sides of their mouth.

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Never said I liked everything ALPA did with my dues money.

The best thing they offered, which thank God I never had to use was their aeromedical staff. Talked to many a pilot who had a "problem" that basically let ALPA Aeromedical deal with the paperwork/FAA bureaucracy. All said it was the best single thing ALPA offered.

Advocacy on safety issues is another strong area.

Representation in any adverse actions by the company another great service.

But like you and I both said, there are bad things about any organization. ANY organization. Lot of it has to do with seeking and keeping power. The government, the military, labor unions, business in general, all are fertile ground for those who crave power.

That was why I had many a run in with my elected or appointed union officials. I took umbrage that THEY wanted to run, lock, stock, and barrel, MY union. To the exclusion of me and my fellow rank and file members.
 
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What if that person was your life long best friend?

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Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. Twice.

I had two of them involved in the Eastern strike.

One, a high school classmate and fellow Air Force pilot chose to honor the picket line. Ended up costing him a lot. Bounced around from cargo operation to cargo operation. Now retired, works for Flight Safety as an instructor. I keep in touch with him from time to time and still consider him a lifelong friend who I would gladly drink a beer with.

The other a fraternity brother at Purdue, and fellow Air Force pilot, chose to scab. After Eastern went belly up he never flew commercially again. Went back to farming I think. I spoke with him right after he crossed, told him my feelings on the matter, and have never spoken to, or had any contact with him again. Nor will I.

Even with this there is another side.

I also had pilots who were listed as scabs on one of the many "lists" in my reserve squadron. Had some "conflicts" with other pilots who had honored the picket line. Called everyone together, let them all know that this was the Air Force, we were getting paid to do a job defending this country. I flat said that if I ever heard, or observed anything about labor issues from anybody, on either side, they would both be out of the unit before the close of business that day! Never had a problem from that time on.

In that case it was just a matter of establishing the priorities of everybody involved! Worked too! As far as the personal side, I practiced what I preached. This was the military, I was the commander, and I did what I asked my troops to do. I didn't bring personal feelings to the job at hand. Couldn't very well do otherwise.
 
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The best thing they offered, which thank God I never had to use was their aeromedical staff. Talked to many a pilot who had a "problem" that basically let ALPA Aeromedical deal with the paperwork/FAA bureaucracy. All said it was the best single thing ALPA offered.


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ALPA medical was a HUGE help with Bill's three month 'vacation' this past summer. There were some frustrations dealing with them, but I'd much rather work with/through ALPA medical than directly with the FAA!
 
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What I find particularly ironinc (sic) about this is that ALPA, the same organization that condemns these so called "scabs" just recently admitted the entire Continental Airlines Pilot group into their membership. For those you who don't know, the CAL pilots when on strike back in the early 80's. Some people crossed right away. As time went on, more and more pilots crossed. To my knowledge, the strike never officially ended. It just became a moot point. So, in effect, every pilot who ever got hired into CAL from then until they were admitted to ALPA is, by ALPA's own definition a scab. But I guess all that dues money was just too much for ALPA to pass up.
By endorsing CALs return to ALPA, should not every ALPA member be considered a scab?

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There's actually a little more to it. There were several different groups. Some crossed from day one, others were hired later, still others came from other carriers. Some came back after the strike was "over" some didn't. There were many court cases regarding the entire Continental strike and Frank Lorenzo. Some are still pending. Out of one of the court rulings came a sort of "general amnesty" thing. Shut off the "scab" issue as far as a legal matter for ALPA or any other union. Had no effect on how other pilots felt or acted personally.

As far as "admitted" to ALPA. Union membership is a local council issue. You are voted in, or not. National ALPA doesn't have a lot to do with it. They do have the power to expel a member I believe, although I haven't checked their Constitution and By-Laws lately about that.

Like I said, it's a very long and complicated issue to cover adequately on this forum. Suffice to say, "the only way to take care of a can of worms, once opened, is with a BIGGER can!"
 
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Probably the one thing that made Lorenzo's strategy work was the employees' deep desire to see CAL survive despite his cynical manipulations.

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I think, historically speaking, the thing that allowed Lorenzo to do what his did was to unilaterally declare all labor contracts null and void as a part of filing for bankruptcy.

Because of this the laws have been changed where that can no longer be done as part of a bankruptcy filing.

As low as a scab may be, Frank Lorenzo is much more loathsome and vile!
 
I got sick at Iron City BBQ in Austin when I looked up on the wall and there was a picture of Frank Lorenzo.

Bastids...
 
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I got sick at Iron City BBQ in Austin when I looked up on the wall and there was a picture of Frank Lorenzo.

Bastids...

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Doug, wanna meet me for lunch@Whitts?
 
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