Commuter airlines' underpaid pilots are plain scary!

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Shortage at the entry level homie. The beginning of it was the reason me and you got hired well below 1000TT. I'm not saying the legacies will be crying for pilots. Ask Todd. The ALPA people know the storm is coming...

The figures do back you up. Pilot certificate issuances have dropped to an incredibly low level. Flight schools are closing all over the country. We're now just 3.5 years away from the massive retirement numbers hitting us again. UAL alone will be retiring over 300 pilots per year for the foreseeable future starting in 2012. The other legacies have similar numbers. That's going to require regional pilots to move up to fill the void, and then there aren't a whole lot of puppy mills turning out new regional pilots nowadays to backfill.

 

[Kestrel452]

The figures do back you up. Pilot certificate issuances have dropped to an incredibly low level. Flight schools are closing all over the country. We're now just 3.5 years away from the massive retirement numbers hitting us again. UAL alone will be retiring over 300 pilots per year for the foreseeable future starting in 2012. The other legacies have similar numbers. That's going to require regional pilots to move up to fill the void, and then there aren't a whole lot of puppy mills turning out new regional pilots nowadays to backfill.

This is what i have been telling my parents, but they dont believe me at all. they still wont even cosign a loan.....

 

[MikeD]

This is what i have been telling my parents, but they dont believe me at all. they still wont even cosign a loan.....

Am surpirsed you can find a lending institution offering a loan, in these times.....

 

[surreal1221]

This is what i have been telling my parents, but they dont believe me at all. they still wont even cosign a loan.....

cosign on a loan, for what? Only flight training?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Ugh. . .I don't really care what "study" ALPA does on the MPL. Group A will never have to deal with it because they'll be getting the legit ATP holders from various sources. It'll be the tiny guys down in the various B groups that get stuck with it. So, of course ALPA is for it.

Come on, you're usually more in tune with how this process works. The A-Carriers don't make the decision. This was passed unanimously by the Executive Council, which has just as many B and C carrier EVPs as A carrier EVPs, and it was also passed by the Executive Board, which is made up of every MEC Chairman in the Association. Trying to say that this is an A-carrier thing is completely off base. The B-carrier guys are supporting it also.

I'm not buying it for a second. These MPL individuals are then life time FOs?

No, they can upgrade and get their ATP just as any commercial pilot does now.

Will there be language stipulating that they are to be compensated (FAR wise)?

They would be employees just like any other.

Would it be in bad taste then to dictate a separate "FO" scale for those holding an MPL, that is say - at a 30% reduction from legit FO rates?

Yes, it most certainly would, and it would be counter-productive to your goal of advancing the profession.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

This is what i have been telling my parents, but they dont believe me at all. they still wont even cosign a loan.....

I'm not sure that I would be delving in just yet. Give it a couple of years before taking out those big loans. The hiring wave isn't quite just around the corner. We're a few years away.

 

[Polar742]

Do you think this "pinching down on" of the regionals somehow has an endpoint in sight?

Honestly, I have no empirical evidence to back the following up, but here's my WAG based on historical cycle stuff.

I see us in the 2nd major cycle of the airline industry. The "legacies" of today went through all the stuff the "regionals" are going through. They all started out as some regional air service with crappy pay, high death rates and non existent work rules. They grew to national domestic networks that fed our overseas carriers PanAm and TWA. Eventually, jets were invented, and they all upscaled to the jets dropping the smaller markets. Some of the old stalwarts failed, some are still around.

Along the way, the pilots fought for the wages and work rules we look back on with envy and rose colored glasses.

Then the next crop of small airlines started...a "new" industry segment called a "commuter". These small airlines ran prop airplanes on routes from small cities to feed the bigger airlines. --See a trend here?

As far as where the "regionals" go, I say a couple will grow into the next major carriers. Right now, I'd say the odds on favorites are my alma mater, RAH and SkyWest. Anything can change though. As the "original" group of commuters have grown to nationwide domestic network carriers under the auspicious "codeshare" arrangement, a new group of fledgling carriers have grown to replace the 19 seat and 30 seat routes that have been abandoned, witness Great Lakes with the 1900 and Brasilia expansion, Cape Air getting the ATRs and they are openly talking about fleet replacement for the 402s, with their new JetBlue arrangement.

Then you have Colgan....is it a leader of the next generation of high capacity/ high efficiency turboprops, or is it a laggard that will have a bastard one off fleet of Q planes?

I don't see any changes in the evolution of the business, unless there is a marked revolution of the pilots in all the major brand CBAs.

It's always interesting in aviation and these times are no different.

 

[Trip7]

I'm not sure that I would be delving in just yet. Give it a couple of years before taking out those big loans. The hiring wave isn't quite just around the corner. We're a few years away.

:yeahthat: I tell prospective pilots to chill for now. Wait at least a year before starting flight training and don't do any fast track programs. And also to do research. Met one guy who was about to go to Comair Flight Academy or whatever its called now and almost spit all the beer out my mouth...

 

[Kestrel452]

It's for a university based program. So I got about 5-7 years before i even THINK about looking at the airlines

 

[OldTownPilot]

70 hours in an airplane before you can fly for an airline......And we already have a problem with regional pilots not being able to fly an airplane.


I guess it comes down to wanting a pilot, or a operator at the controls. One of the local commuter Captains and check airman talks about his FO's knowing more random useless crap about the airplane than he ever cares to know, but not being able to fly an airplane worth a damn once you are the slightest bit off profile. All the book training in the world can't replace real experience in an airplane when there is no reset button to correct your mistakes.

To me the MPL is a VERY scary thought when it comes to the airmanship levels in the cockpit, especially once they start being paired together as a crew.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It's for a university based program. So I got about 5-7 years before i even THINK about looking at the airlines

In that case, I think it's a very good idea. If you start this coming fall, then you'll probably be setting yourself up for a good time to enter the industry. Good luck.

 

[mwflyer]

The MPL (Multi-crew Pilot License) is on its way, folks. This talk of having two pilots with an ATP isn't going to go anywhere. Several countries have already started implementing MPL programs, and we have a few schools in America that are working on it, too, just waiting for FAA certification. Minimum qualifications aren't going to go up, they're going to go down. MPL allows all but about 50 hours to be flown in a sim. The other 150 or so hours are flown in non-motion sims. Get ready for it.

This is only going to be at the regionals, correct? The majors wont have guys in the front seat with only 250 hrs, will they?

 

[wheelsup]

It's pretty scary to think one could be could be making less than $20k straight out of college

Back in junior high school (mid 90's) I was talking to my parents about pay in the "real world". They gave an example of someone they knew making $36,000/year. I was appalled, "how could anyone live on that?" I asked. I was in a bubble, my father made really good money working for a minority owned firm contracting to the Government (he was ex-Air Force).

Sad thing is, my average yearly income since graduating college (6 years ago) is right around $28,000/year. And that's in 2009 dollars.

 

[granlistillo]

The figures do back you up. Pilot certificate issuances have dropped to an incredibly low level. Flight schools are closing all over the country. We're now just 3.5 years away from the massive retirement numbers hitting us again. UAL alone will be retiring over 300 pilots per year for the foreseeable future starting in 2012. The other legacies have similar numbers. That's going to require regional pilots to move up to fill the void, and then there aren't a whole lot of puppy mills turning out new regional pilots nowadays to backfill.

I am confused. I knew Europe was doing the MPL, but I didn't think we were considered it here. I have no info on it. I asked seriously, not to debate, but how can ALPA be for this???
I thought the goal was to see a reduced supply of pilots (like in Europe) so wages go up. What about increasing the standards, if this is truly a profession? This pilot shortage sounds like management's problem. There are a lot of pilots in the US that will fill the seats if pay and QOL are where they need to be. If filling seats were a real problem, then ATP and other flight schools can churn them out. Shouldn't ALPA be clamoring for an ATP or something close to it as an entry level requirement?
The reason Europe has the MPL, is that they have a dearth of pilots in some places, because it is a really difficult getting a CPL or ATPL (really no difference except for hours), and that is why 200 hr guys go right seat in a 320 or 737. How is this good for the industry or pilots?

 

[Trip7]

This is only going to be at the regionals, correct? The majors wont have guys in the front seat with only 250 hrs, will they?

Correct. With all the flying that has been taken over by the regionals, there will never be a shortage at the major level.

 

[WalterSobchak]

It's pretty scary to think one could be could be making less than $20k straight out of college

No one deserves money straight out of college. Especially in this career. You have zero experience in the real world comming out of college. This is where the problem lies. Just because you paid "Big Name U" flight school a lot of money to take courses on flying doesnt mean you should be any where near a 121 cockpit. A lot of people think that manipulating the controls is all there is to it and that is the farthest from the truth. Get some experience and maturity before you should be thinking about the sweet RJ. I know lots of teachers with masters degrees and they make less than 30K starting out.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

No one deserves money straight out of college. Especially in this career. You have zero experience in the real world comming out of college. This is where the problem lies. Just because you paid "Big Name U" flight school a lot of money to take courses on flying doesnt mean you should be any where near a 121 cockpit. A lot of people think that manipulating the controls is all there is to it and that is the farthest from the truth. Get some experience and maturity before you should be thinking about the sweet RJ. I know lots of teachers with masters degrees and they make less than 30K starting out.

Yes and no.... you deserve a respectable living wage. A friend of mine, a computer programmer, made $40K year 1 and 2 out of college; year 3, $80K.

Numerous number 1 unproven NFL picks make millions before they prove themselves...

I agree that money isn't an entitlement..... however, you shouldn't HAVE to move back into your parents house because of your wage. You shouldn't have to get a ghetto-ass apartment to be able to afford to live.

 

[mshunter]

No one deserves money straight out of college. Especially in this career. You have zero experience in the real world comming out of college. This is where the problem lies. Just because you paid "Big Name U" flight school a lot of money to take courses on flying doesnt mean you should be any where near a 121 cockpit. A lot of people think that manipulating the controls is all there is to it and that is the farthest from the truth. Get some experience and maturity before you should be thinking about the sweet RJ. I know lots of teachers with masters degrees and they make less than 30K starting out.

We are not teachers. We are pilot's with peoples lives in our hands. I am not asking for $100k a year my first year. I am asking for a job that will pay my bills, and keeo a roof over my head, even if it only is a 1 bed. appartment. The starting wage of an airline pilot IS BELOW THE POVERTY LINE. You literally can make the same money at Mc Donalds. (Min wage $7.25 * 48 hrs a week * 52 weeks a year = $18,096). Thats more than the FO of 3407 made!

 

[Gonzo]

We are not teachers. We are pilot's with peoples lives in our hands. I am not asking for $100k a year my first year. I am asking for a job that will pay my bills, and keeo a roof over my head, even if it only is a 1 bed. appartment. The starting wage of an airline pilot IS BELOW THE POVERTY LINE. You literally can make the same money at Mc Donalds. (Min wage $7.25 * 48 hrs a week * 52 weeks a year = $18,096). Thats more than the FO of 3407 made!

The pay is not a secret. There are airlines that the pay is ok. I know two guys on this broad that made over 36K their first year at XJT. I made over 30K my first on RSV at Eagle. I am on pace to make over 40K this year (2nd). My guess is she was at Colgan for the fast upgrade.

 

[seagull]

If you're avoiding the regionals from a comfort standpoint that's somewhat understandable. But if you're avoiding them from a safety standpoint I think that's alittle overboard. Its much safer to strap your family into a 25 million dollar regional jet than to strap your family into a $15,000 minivan and taking a long memorial day drive somewhere.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how you run your stats. Air travel only looks good when based on DISTANCE. If you base it on time, or on a "per trip" (meaning segment) basis, it doesn't look so good.

OTOH, if you take the space shuttle, it looks REALLY bad if you measure it per trip, but blows the airlines out of the water on a "per mile" basis!