Commuter airlines' underpaid pilots are plain scary!

[MFT1Air]

I agree with an ATP being required to be in a 121 cockpit. It would be a HUGE benefit to the industry, and that includes 135 and 91 ops.

BUT, that is not how most of Europe does it at all. Most new hire in the UK are 250 hour guys in the right seat of a Airbus or Boeing. The only two differences is the person in the right seat paid 25K for their type rating, and they have to have (I think) a frozen ATPL. You're talking about months of all day ground school and 13 test over stuff you have never heard of.

I would personally love for the US to adopt the JAA system for the ATP. It would weed out a lot of dumbasses that buy their way to an airline.

What. . .help me. UK - 250 hours, 25k for their type rating, and frozen ATPL. How many hours for a frozen ATPL?

 

[granlistillo]

What. . .help me. UK - 250 hours, 25k for their type rating, and frozen ATPL. How many hours for a frozen ATPL?

frozen atpl is like I posted above. 200 hrs including 100 p1 or pic if I remember. Technically there is no such thing as a frozen atpl, it is a commercial ticket with the atpl written. It is unfrozen when you reach 1500 hours and 500 hours multi crew and you pass a skills test (atp ride plus type.) Then you have an atpl (which in Europe must come with a type).

 

[MFT1Air]

frozen atpl is like I posted above. 200 hrs including 100 p1 or pic if I remember. Technically there is no such thing as a frozen atpl, it is a commercial ticket with the atpl written. It is unfrozen when you reach 1500 hours and 500 hours multi crew and you pass a skills test (atp ride plus type.) Then you have an atpl (which in Europe must come with a type).

Your post I understood. RyanmickG's confused me.

 

[Trip7]

I agree with an ATP being required to be in a 121 cockpit. It would be a HUGE benefit to the industry, and that includes 135 and 91 ops.

BUT, that is not how most of Europe does it at all. Most new hire in the UK are 250 hour guys in the right seat of a Airbus or Boeing. The only two differences is the person in the right seat paid 25K for their type rating, and they have to have (I think) a frozen ATPL. You're talking about months of all day ground school and 13 test over stuff you have never heard of.

I would personally love for the US to adopt the JAA system for the ATP. It would weed out a lot of dumbasses that buy their way to an airline.

Completely agree. I know many people in the game right now that wouldn't stand a chance with a European still system. Requiring right seat to have a ATP will cause 1st year pay to be raised dramatically in order to attract qualified pilots to the airlines. I probably would bring you and Mojo to the darkside

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The MPL (Multi-crew Pilot License) is on its way, folks. This talk of having two pilots with an ATP isn't going to go anywhere. Several countries have already started implementing MPL programs, and we have a few schools in America that are working on it, too, just waiting for FAA certification. Minimum qualifications aren't going to go up, they're going to go down. MPL allows all but about 50 hours to be flown in a sim. The other 150 or so hours are flown in non-motion sims. Get ready for it.

 

[MikeD]

The MPL (Multi-crew Pilot License) is on its way, folks. This talk of having two pilots with an ATP isn't going to go anywhere. Several countries have already started implementing MPL programs, and we have a few schools in America that are working on it, too, just waiting for FAA certification. Minimum qualifications aren't going to go up, they're going to go down. MPL allows all but about 50 hours to be flown in a sim. The other 150 or so hours are flown in non-motion sims. Get ready for it.

Yet another reason to stay as far away from being a pax on a regional as I can.....

 

[Gonzo]

The MPL (Multi-crew Pilot License) is on its way, folks. This talk of having two pilots with an ATP isn't going to go anywhere. Several countries have already started implementing MPL programs, and we have a few schools in America that are working on it, too, just waiting for FAA certification. Minimum qualifications aren't going to go up, they're going to go down. MPL allows all but about 50 hours to be flown in a sim. The other 150 or so hours are flown in non-motion sims. Get ready for it.

The MPL is going to cost the airlines way to much. You do know the 1st year a pilot gets a MPL they are in a jumpseat the whole year.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Yet another reason to stay as far away from being a pax on a regional as I can.....

I'm not so sure. After a three-year study overseen by Captain Rice, ALPA recently endorsed the MPL as long as an MPL program has certain stringent criteria. They seem to think that it will work better than the current system if it's done right.

The MPL is going to cost the airlines way to much. You do know the 1st year a pilot gets a MPL they are in a jumpseat the whole year.

Based on all of the documentation I've seen, that's not correct. I just went back to review what I've got, and it looks like a minimum of 70 hours actual flight time, 12 takeoffs and landings in a full-motion simulator, 240 hour total time, including sim, and then right into the right seat of a transport category aircraft with a checkairman.

 

[Gonzo]

Based on all of the documentation I've seen, that's not correct. I just went back to review what I've got, and it looks like a minimum of 70 hours actual flight time, 12 takeoffs and landings in a full-motion simulator, 240 hour total time, including sim, and then right into the right seat of a transport category aircraft with a checkairman.

Wasn't the guy in the jumpseat of that 737 in AMS a MPL guy. In the EU aren't most of the MPL guys going in as SO.

 

[Trip7]

The MPL is going to cost the airlines way to much. You do know the 1st year a pilot gets a MPL they are in a jumpseat the whole year.

The airlines are going to have to do something. Its a well known fact that a massive pilot shortage at the entry level is on its way. A storm is brewing and it started to hit shore until age 65 put the levees up. Once that 5 years is up its going to get REAL interesting. This low 1st year pay nonsense is going to come to an abrupt end...

 

[MikeD]

I'm not so sure. After a three-year study overseen by Captain Rice, ALPA recently endorsed the MPL as long as an MPL program has certain stringent criteria. They seem to think that it will work better than the current system if it's done right.

If it's better than what we have now, then cool, that'd work. I'll be perfectly honest....with what we have now, I make every effort to avoid flying a regional if at all possible in the few times I fly the airlines per year. On the websites, when selecting a flight with connections, if I come across one of those "UA 625, then UA 6541*..." with the fineprint at the bottom of the webpage of "....*flight operated by XXX Airlines"; then time to find another flight. If that's all there is, then so be it.

 

[Gonzo]

If it's better than what we have now, then cool, that'd work. I'll be perfectly honest....with what we have now, I make every effort to avoid flying a regional if at all possible in the few times I fly the airlines per year. On the websites, when selecting a flight with connections, if I come across one of those "UA 625, then UA 6541*..." with the fineprint at the bottom of the webpage of "....*flight operated by XXX Airlines"; then time to find another flight. If that's all there is, then so be it.

Why there are some regionals (QX, AE) were the flight crew might have more time then some of crews on a LCC or Mainline.

 

[MikeD]

Why there are some regionals (QX, AE) were the flight crew might have more time then some of crews on a LCC or Mainline.

Primarily because they're not very comfortable. I don't mind RJs or turboprops as planes, but I'd like something a little bigger for some longer legs. Short legs, who cares. Depending on the particular code-share carrier involved, that'll make a difference on whether or not I'd go with them or not, vis-a-vis what I perceive of crew experience and training.

 

[Trip7]

If it's better than what we have now, then cool, that'd work. I'll be perfectly honest....with what we have now, I make every effort to avoid flying a regional if at all possible in the few times I fly the airlines per year. On the websites, when selecting a flight with connections, if I come across one of those "UA 625, then UA 6541*..." with the fineprint at the bottom of the webpage of "....*flight operated by XXX Airlines"; then time to find another flight. If that's all there is, then so be it.

If you're avoiding the regionals from a comfort standpoint that's somewhat understandable. But if you're avoiding them from a safety standpoint I think that's alittle overboard. Its much safer to strap your family into a 25 million dollar regional jet than to strap your family into a $15,000 minivan and taking a long memorial day drive somewhere.

 

[SurferLucas]

When I got hired at Horizon, I was the highest time pilot in my class (1900+ hrs)...and the rest of my class came from UND. I know that all of them came through training with little to no problem.

That being said, when a QX pilot goes in for upgrade to Captain, they've been with the company for 6-7 years (that includes 6-7 winters in the PacNW) and has on average 5,000 hrs.

I can give QX alot of hell, about alot of things. One thing that Horizon did really well was to train us and hold us to a very high standard. I'm not saying that other airlines don't...but just speaking from my own personal experience, Horizon's instructors and Check Airmen do a wonderful job of making sure you're up to snuff with your job.

 

[surreal1221]

The airlines are going to have to do something. Its a well known fact that a massive pilot shortage at the entry level is on its way. A storm is brewing and it started to hit shore until age 65 put the levees up. Once that 5 years is up its going to get REAL interesting. This low 1st year pay nonsense is going to come to an abrupt end...

Well known fact that a massive pilot shortage is on it's way?

You're not the next Kit Darby are you?

The MPL (Multi-crew Pilot License) is on its way, folks. This talk of having two pilots with an ATP isn't going to go anywhere. Several countries have already started implementing MPL programs, and we have a few schools in America that are working on it, too, just waiting for FAA certification. Minimum qualifications aren't going to go up, they're going to go down. MPL allows all but about 50 hours to be flown in a sim. The other 150 or so hours are flown in non-motion sims. Get ready for it.

Ugh. . .I don't really care what "study" ALPA does on the MPL. Group A will never have to deal with it because they'll be getting the legit ATP holders from various sources. It'll be the tiny guys down in the various B groups that get stuck with it. So, of course ALPA is for it.

I'm not buying it for a second. These MPL individuals are then life time FOs? Will there be language stipulating that they are to be compensated (FAR wise)? Would it be in bad taste then to dictate a separate "FO" scale for those holding an MPL, that is say - at a 30% reduction from legit FO rates?

This is nonsense. Our 21st century crew complement challenge.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Wasn't the guy in the jumpseat of that 737 in AMS a MPL guy. In the EU aren't most of the MPL guys going in as SO.

FlyBe is putting about a dozen trainees through the first UK MPL program this summer, and they're going straight into the right seat of a Q400. I'm not sure what's going on in AMS.

I'll be perfectly honest....with what we have now, I make every effort to avoid flying a regional if at all possible

For me, it depends on the regional. I have no problem flying on Mesaba, Eagle, Comair, etc... because I know that the crew up front has some decent experience. Other carriers, such as Mesa, Pinnacle, Colgan, etc... worry me, because of the limited experience of a lot of their crews, so I avoid them unless I know the crew well enough to feel comfortable with them.

 

[Trip7]

Well known fact that a massive pilot shortage is on it's way?

You're not the next Kit Darby are you?

Shortage at the entry level homie. The beginning of it was the reason me and you got hired well below 1000TT. I'm not saying the legacies will be crying for pilots. Ask Todd. The ALPA people know the storm is coming...

 

[sorrygottarunway]

I don't disagree that regionals aren't losing money. I was at one that made money hand-over-fist when majors were hoping for ATSB loans and filing bankruptcies.

If you think more money (percentage wise) will go into one budget without coming out of another, you might need to go sit in on some budget meetings or something.

I'm no finance major, but you can only have 100% of 100%.

And since you brought it up, the regionals have no direct control over raising their compensation levels with their major airline partners with a capacity purchase agreement (or whatever the preferred term is). Some might have had a little wiggle room, but interestingly enough there was an article in ATW about Skywest and how Delta is pinching down on the regionals (you might find that an interesting read).

The conclusion it brings us to is that the current regional compensation structure leads to what I've termed for years as "management by spreadsheet" where the number of ASMs are bought by the mainline, whether it be the contractual minimum or the max, and all the management has to do is input their costs. If the costs are lesser than the compensation, great they are heros. If not, they lose money. It's not like they can call the marketing department and say "Hey, Paul, raise all the tickets $1.00 to help us cover this budgetary gap!" If the expenses are greater than the compensation from the big daddy, they're done.

Like wise there can be a problem if the managment's current plan is based on a higher-than-minimum contractual compensation rate.

What's always cut first? CEO Pay, interior maintenance of the aircraft or cutting in house maintenance and outsourcing heavy checks?

Do you think this "pinching down on" of the regionals somehow has an endpoint in sight? I mean, partially, we have seen lots of mainline routes get farmed out to regionals due to cheaper operating costs and the ability to operate at a higher frequency (= higher convenience for pax), which due to the surge in technology have turned into very profitable regional routes. Is there a point where it would actually be more profitable for the mainline carrier to own and operate the flights?

I'm curious how lufthansa does this with their regional daughter, cityline. It seems as if you start there, then eventually move up to mainline lufthansa, since you're already a lufthansa employee to begin with.

 

[MikeD]

For me, it depends on the regional. I have no problem flying on Mesaba, Eagle, Comair, etc... because I know that the crew up front has some decent experience. Other carriers, such as Mesa, Pinnacle, Colgan, etc... worry me, because of the limited experience of a lot of their crews, so I avoid them unless I know the crew well enough to feel comfortable with them.

Agree. Eagle/Mesaba, etc, I'll give more credence to, esp if I happen to know the guys up front (which is extremely rare anymore, but was very possible in the mid-90s). Some of the others you mention, I can understand.