Comair Crash today (fatal)

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Well, yeah apparently the captain was the one that lined up the airplane, as it is standard. It doesn't matter, though. Both pilots can see where they are just the same. Even if the FO hadn't been looking outside during the taxiing, he accepted the Captain's positioning of the aircraft.
 
From the controller's point of view. . .

It's not our (their) job to baby sit you to the RWY. Once we give you a taxi instruction, you read it back to us correctly, you tell us you are ready for departure on the RWY we told you to taxi to, we clear you for takeoff for the runway we told you to taxi to, and you depart on the wrong RWY thinking you were on the right one.

Wow. . . run on.

It is still the PIC's responsibility. We (they) keep the planes from touching. Bottom line, if the TWR told them to taxi to 22, they read it back correctly. Call ready for departure for 22, but in actually are holding short of 26, and the TWR clears them for takeoff on 22. . . but the crew takeoff on 26 instead. . . it's still a matter of the crew failing to maintain SA and subsequently departing on the wrong RWY. I can't see how you can blame the controller(s) for the crews lapse of concentration.

Now for the disclaimer, I'm only an ATC CTI student.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure if there was another controller in the cab, that he/she would have noticed it and announced it to the crew, hopefully before V1min/max or whatever, and with enough room to stop that RJ rolling down at 120-130KTs before slamming into the trees.
 
falconvalley said:
Well, yeah apparently the captain was the one that lined up the airplane, as it is standard. It doesn't matter, though. Both pilots can see where they are just the same. Even if the FO hadn't been looking outside during the taxiing, he accepted the Captain's positioning of the aircraft.
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Hey - I'm not arguing that with the information we currently "know" this isn't 105% pilot error - I was just answering the question who was taxing.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Yea...saw that on the news tonight. They said that only one guy was in the tower and that he gave the Comair flt. taxi instructions and then turned away to do administrative tower duties totally forgeting to watch the flight as it taxi'd on to the wrong runway.
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Max,

It has been said that the most dangerous lie is the one that begins with a shred of truth.

What you said about there being only one controller in the tower, and him giving taxi instructions and takeoff clearance, and then turning away to do administrative duties, is a fair representation of what "they said." I take great offense, however, to your editorializing "their" remarks by adding your own "totally forgeting [sic] to watch the flight."

Point 1: The "they" that you're paraphrasing said nothing about the controller forgetting to do anything. You are putting words in their mouth. That's unfair.

Point 2: By inserting the word forget, you imply that the controller did something wrong. You imply he sould have been watching the entire taxi and takeoff, and he was negligent. Now, while we may find out later that observing the entire taxi and takeoff was part of his assigned duties, and he failed to do them properly, such has NOT been stated or implied by the person you paraphrase. So far, we have only heard suggestions to the contrary. He was NOT required to observe the entire taxi and takeoff, and he was not being negligent by turning around to accomplish administrative tasks.


Would it have been nice for him to watch and possibly catch the error before it resulted in death? Well, certainly. However, that alone (being a nice thing) doesn't make it the controller's error if he did not. Don't place negligence where negligence has yet to be established.





.
 
Great reply TonyC.

And Ladies and Gentlepilots, THAT'S one of the reasons we don't speculate in public about accidents. So we don't have three facts and one speculation attributed as fact attached to our name. The next thing you know, the National Exposure has a feature article titled "Pilot group at JetCareers charge controllers across the country with negligence because they forget about them!!" More at 11!
 
"Don't place negligence where negligence has yet to be established"

The FAA has admitted that they violated their own policy by having only one controller working a tower/radar facility. The min is supposed to be one in the tower and one on the radar.
 
DE727UPS said:
"Don't place negligence where negligence has yet to be established"

The FAA has admitted that they violated their own policy by having only one controller working a tower/radar facility. The min is supposed to be one in the tower and one on the radar.
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Around where I fly, in the evenings and mornings it seems common (to me) or has happened more than once that the say guy is approach, tower, and ground for say, KDAY. What would be an appropriate response if I encounter this situation again?
 
DE727UPS said:
"Don't place negligence where negligence has yet to be established"

The FAA has admitted that they violated their own policy by having only one controller working a tower/radar facility. The min is supposed to be one in the tower and one on the radar.
Click to expand...


As careful as I was to make my point, apparently you did not get it.




Yes, the FAA admitted they violated their manning policy.

They DID NOT admit the controller on duty forgot to watch the taxiing airplane.



Do you see the difference?





.
 
TonyC said:
Max,

It has been said that the most dangerous lie is the one that begins with a shred of truth.

What you said about there being only one controller in the tower, and him giving taxi instructions and takeoff clearance, and then turning away to do administrative duties, is a fair representation of what "they said." I take great offense, however, to your editorializing "their" remarks by adding your own "totally forgeting [sic] to watch the flight."

Point 1: The "they" that you're paraphrasing said nothing about the controller forgetting to do anything. You are putting words in their mouth. That's unfair.

Point 2: By inserting the word forget, you imply that the controller did something wrong. You imply he sould have been watching the entire taxi and takeoff, and he was negligent. Now, while we may find out later that observing the entire taxi and takeoff was part of his assigned duties, and he failed to do them properly, such has NOT been stated or implied by the person you paraphrase. So far, we have only heard suggestions to the contrary. He was NOT required to observe the entire taxi and takeoff, and he was not being negligent by turning around to accomplish administrative tasks.


Would it have been nice for him to watch and possibly catch the error before it resulted in death? Well, certainly. However, that alone (being a nice thing) doesn't make it the controller's error if he did not. Don't place negligence where negligence has yet to be established.





.
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I quoted from what I heard on the news I didn't paraphrase anything. I even hinted that take what I said with a grain of salt since the report I heard said that the FO was taxiing the plane.

I'm well aware that the news isn't a totally factual source of info and is more a ratings/sensational outlet but again I just wanted to say what I had heard on the news.

Time for work!
 
TonyC said:
Yes, the FAA admitted they violated their manning policy.

They DID NOT admit the controller on duty forgot to watch the taxiing airplane.

Do you see the difference?
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A distinction worthy of an attorney.

"If Chewbacca is a Wookie, you must acquit!"
 
DE727UPS said:
"Don't place negligence where negligence has yet to be established"

The FAA has admitted that they violated their own policy by having only one controller working a tower/radar facility. The min is supposed to be one in the tower and one on the radar.
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Yes, but one person in the tower cab. . . and one sitting behind the radar scope, still leaves how many people watching the outside world with thier eyes?

Anyone class?

1 person? Yup, you're correct!

So it wouldn't of mattered, it's still only ONE person in the tower cab looking outside at his area of responsibility. The radar side controller has no control over ground operations if he is working a combined approach and departure position, when the local controller is working the delivery, ground, and tower position.

Makes sense doesn't it?
 
TonyC said:
As careful as I was to make my point, apparently you did not get it.




Yes, the FAA admitted they violated their manning policy.

They DID NOT admit the controller on duty forgot to watch the taxiing airplane.



Do you see the difference?





.
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I ask this because I honestly do not know. Is a controller required to watch an airplane as it taxis and watch as it commences the takeoff roll?
 
Dugie8 said:
I ask this because I honestly do not know. Is a controller required to watch an airplane as it taxis and watch as it commences the takeoff roll?
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Required by 7110.65. . . not that I recall. Watching the airspace past the departure end of a RWY and making sure the airspace is clear, as well as the crossing runway is a priority. But please also understand that in a very low traffic facility, at 6am in the morning, if he is the only guy going, and no arrivals are coming in. . . why must he transfix his eyes on him and make sure the PIC is doing his job?

Should they fix their eyes on one target, hence rendering their scan of the aerodrome pointless?

The information coming out appears the local controller gave instructions to taxi to 22, the crew read that back, and taxied. They taxi to what they think is 22, but is actually 26. They announce they are ready for departure at 22. The controller then gives them the TO clr for 22.

It's the crew that taxied to, and held short of the wrong runway, and (i'm assuming here. . . no CVR transcript yet) that they announced that they were ready for departure at 22, but were obviously at 26.

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00697AD.PDF

From the position of the TWR at the field, I can see how even if looking towards the hold points for 22/26 that if lighting is low, you may even look towards that direction and think those guys are holding for 22, but are actually at 26.

I'm against crucifying the crew, don't get me wrong. But it should be obviously clear that a lapse of concentration, and failure to maintain SA has caused now 47 or 49, how ever many were really onboard to die. But I'm also VERY much against trying to pin ANY blame on the controller for this one. Blame should be pointed towards the FAA's leadership, and local managers for their scheduling woes. But do not crucify the lone controller who was on shift. It's not his fault he was the only one there at the time. He didn't write the schedule. He isn't the one writing the funding checks for FAA man power.
 
I've run down the jetway when I was running a bit late, noticed bags were already in the closet and I had went to the wrong gate.
 
SeanD said:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/30/plane.crash/index.html

This article also says the pilots started the morning off getting on to the wrong plane. Does this happen a lot? Just curious I have always wondered if it was possible for a pilot to mistake the wrong plane.
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Sometimes their are 5 or 6 commuter jets around one gate. Many times it looks like a circus...and could be very confusing. Not that big of a deal. The company can also switch airplanes at the last minute...without the crew knowing...which can cause confusion also.
 
SeanD said:
This article also says the pilots started the morning off getting on to the wrong plane. Does this happen a lot? Just curious I have always wondered if it was possible for a pilot to mistake the wrong plane.
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Often at Eagle there would be more than one plane parked, and if you didn't stop at ops to get the release before heading out to the plane it was very easy to pick the wrong plane! The a/c # is on the release, and if you got the release first, or happened to see an agent you could ask which was yours.

We've all gotten on the wrong plane before, that's no big deal. Now, actually leaving with the wrong plane would be another story!
 
As far as the wrong airplane thing goes, there are 5-6 Comair CRJs that RON at LEX (its a mx base). So its a choice between 5 planes at that hour in the morning. Probably happens once a week or so there.
 
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