Comair 5191: Sole Survivor tonight 1/8 on CNN

This, of course, raises a moral issue. Should someone be punished for their actions or for the results? If a negligent driver runs off the road and hits a tree, should his punishment be lesser than if there was a child standing in front of it? If his actions were the same, should he be punished for the results?

The ultimate example of this is the Great Heck Rail Crash. TLDR: Driver is negligent, runs off road. Happens to be a rail line there. Happens to be a train coming right then, which derails. Happens to be a freight train coming the other way. Many deaths.

So many coincidences, but ultimately the driver was charged with something akin to manslaughter.

Sentences for crimes serve many purposes. Protecting the public from a dangerous criminal, reducing recidivism, a deterrent to others.

But also revenge.

Is that right? Is that valuable to society?
 
NickH said:
This, of course, raises a moral issue. Should someone be punished for their actions or for the results? If a negligent driver runs off the road and hits a tree, should his punishment be lesser than if there was a child standing in front of it? If his actions were the same, should he be punished for the results?

The ultimate example of this is the Great Heck Rail Crash. TLDR: Driver is negligent, runs off road. Happens to be a rail line there. Happens to be a train coming right then, which derails. Happens to be a freight train coming the other way. Many deaths.

So many coincidences, but ultimately the driver was charged with something akin to manslaughter.

Sentences for crimes serve many purposes. Protecting the public from a dangerous criminal, reducing recidivism, a deterrent to others.

But also revenge.

Is that right? Is that valuable to society?
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I say it goes case by case, many of these people suffer deep psychological problems from the guilt of having been responsible for the lives of many people. I know I couldn't deal with all that guilt these people have been punished enough. Imagine if you did something reckless that resulted in the lives of many people could you deal with that guilt? I would say guilt is enough punishment unless they have bigger issues such as not feeling guilty for being responsible for the lives of many then they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
 
I'm with @Pilot Fighter on this one; there should have been legal ramifications for the pilot's actions (or lack thereof).

Sol Rosenburg said:
willful negligence? reckless? perhaps both for me

They stated on the cvr the lights were out. They continued...

SOP checking mag heading at line up. Didn't happen

Talking on the taxi, well they did it so yeah a component of recklessness, not following SOP/fars

Any one of these three and they might not have plowed it, towers aside, signs aside

Does anyone feel the same about the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_1141 yacking and not setting flaps/slats. If they lived would you want them prosecuted? I'd say so. They obviously didn't intend to take off clean but they willingly distracted themselves.
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ALL of these reasons + the runway distance markers. I've always wondered why these weren't GLARING in their heads as they were blasting down the runway....inexcusable.

+The jackass is blaming the Jeppesen charts and ATIS! "We didn't have the proper information in order to get the families to their destination safely." REALLY.....?

mikecweb said:
Was that SOP for Comair prior to this accident? I know every place I've worked for since, granted all 91/135, changed following this accident.
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I know I'm not the only one but I've ALWAYS done this. Line up for takeoff and I verbalize the departure heading and compare with clearance (I actually say it out loud, even when single pilot). Learned it at flight school. Sometimes, we can't wait for SOPs to catch up with safety common sense.
 
NickH said:
This, of course, raises a moral issue. Should someone be punished for their actions or for the results? If a negligent driver runs off the road and hits a tree, should his punishment be lesser than if there was a child standing in front of it? If his actions were the same, should he be punished for the results?....
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Of course he should....
In all fairness, most courts use sentencing guidelines that are based almost completely on the RESULT of one's actions even to a lesser degree than the action itself.
 
dustoff17 said:
I know I'm not the only one but I've ALWAYS done this. Line up for takeoff and I verbalize the departure heading and compare with clearance (I actually say it out loud, even when single pilot). Learned it at flight school. Sometimes, we can't wait for SOPs to catch up with safety common sense.
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Me too. But don't say they weren't following an SOP when it wasn't an SOP.
 
Screw the "punishment" culture that America's got at the moment. Not stringing someone up by the balls doesn't equate to not "holding them responsible", FFS. Any one of the string of millions of normal actions you take over the course of a day could lead to an accident and, in hindsight, be considered "grossly negligent'; what we're doing is, as someone alluded to, punishing people for the result and not the action.

People need to accept that life contains risk, and that punishing people for making mistakes that lead to injury or death will not reduce or eliminate that risk. I see no reason to ever punish anyone for a legitimate mistake, and I realize that I depart from the current culture of our country in that regard. I just can't stand the thought of making examples of people who inherently lacked malicious intent... especially when so many heinous actions go essentially unpunished, so long as they're in furtherance of corporate greed.

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
Screw the "punishment" culture that America's got at the moment...
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Hozzanah! Never see the inside of another cockpit? Sure. Be charged with a crime which requires intent? Absurd. Ludicrous. Possibly insane. Certainly makes a mockery of the notion of Law.

slow_clap_citizen_kane.gif
 
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J Cole said:
................................
To make a case for reckless homicide, you would have to argue that the crew understood, or SHOULD have understood, the grave danger they were in and moved forward, regardless of the risks. I believe that the case is much more innocent than that. The crew engaged in nonpertinant conversation and were hampered by confirmation bias. It was an embarrassing, stupid mistake that in these circumstances turned tragic.
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This, too, is an element for consideration of "reckless".

mikecweb said:
Me too. But don't say they weren't following an SOP when it wasn't an SOP.
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Fair enough and agree with you. So let's change the comment:
Sol Rosenburg said:
willful negligence? reckless? perhaps both for me
They stated on the cvr the lights were out. They continued...
Checking mag heading at line up. Didn't happen
Talking on the taxi, well they did it so yeah a component of recklessness, not following SOP/fars
Any one of these three and they might not have plowed it, towers aside, signs aside
Does anyone feel the same about the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_1141 yacking and not setting flaps/slats. If they lived would you want them prosecuted? I'd say so. They obviously didn't intend to take off clean but they willingly distracted themselves.
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The list still seems negligent and reckless to me....
 
mikecweb said:
So suppose everyone survived. Would you charge the captain and copilot with attempted murder?
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I'm hoping you forgot the "Sarcasm" tag.
If not, .....Apples and oranges.
Murder and/or attempted murder requires intent. We're discussing acts of recklessness and/or negligence....
 
On a side note...does anyone know if this accident is on "air crash investigation"? This CNN show is slow and painful. No disrespect to the survivors, but I would like to see something focused more on the accident and investigation.
 
I don't understand what the problem is here, Comair settled with all but one of the victims families (who was awarded 7.1 million). There was no criminal or malicious intent, the only survivor will live the survivors guilt for the rest of his life. I think any criminal pursuit of this would be a mockery to the justice system.

I do not believe that this was a negligent or reckless act at all. Period. It was an accident, a breakdown in the system that involved many factors.
 
arkflyr said:
I don't understand what the problem is here, Comair settled with all but one of the victims families (who was awarded 7.1 million). There was no criminal or malicious intent, the only survivor will live the survivors guilt for the rest of his life. I think any criminal pursuit of this would be a mockery to the justice system.

I do not believe that this was a negligent or reckless act at all. Period. It was an accident, a breakdown in the system that involved many factors.
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Bu bu but I've never made a mistake that cost people their lives so he should to pay because he's obviously reckless.
 
We established months ago that Pilot Fighter doesn't understand Just Culture and culpability.

Do us all a favor. Read "Whack a Mole" and get back to us.
 
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