Comair 5191: Sole Survivor tonight 1/8 on CNN

Allow to take a step back by saying I mean nothing personal, to you or anyone else, in applying the label of "smug superiority" to this discussion. My intent was to provide warning against simply dismissing the mistakes made by the crew as unintelligent, and not learning from them.

As to the issue of reckless homicide, I understand that you have a personal connection to the accident which (as you admit) removes your ability to be totally objective in this case. However, the law must be objective. I found the following in a definition for reckless homicide:

"In general, "recklessly" means that a person acts recklessly with respect to circumstances surrounding the conduct or the result of the conduct when the person is aware of, but consciously disregards, a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the accused person's standpoint."
http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/reckless-homicide/

To make a case for reckless homicide, you would have to argue that the crew understood the grave danger they were in and moved forward, regardless of the risks. I believe that the case is much more innocent than that. The crew engaged in nonpertinant conversation and were hampered by confirmation bias. It was an embarrassing, stupid mistake that in these circumstances turned tragic.
Can you take a look at Kentucky's definition of reckless that I posted earlier in the thread? I am aware that it is a bit of a departure from many legal definitions I've seen.

I appreciate the tone and thoughtfulness of your post.
 
I don't really understand what prosecuting the FO and putting him in jail would have accomplished.

Would it have prevented any future pilot error issues? Would it make the families of the victims really feel any better? Would it make flying any safer? What would be changed/accomplished?

The victims familes were compensated civilly. 45 passengers received $264 million in confidential settlements, an average of $5.9 million per passenger and one family received 7.1 million (in a separate lawsuit) . No amount of money however, can compensate for the loss of a loved one or bring them back or rid their families and friends of grief, pain and loss.

As for Polehinke, he endured many broken bones during the crash, including pelvis and several ribs, his right and left foot and face, fractured his spinal cord, suffered brain damage, a collapsed lung, had his leg amputated, has endured several surgeries, a lifetime of physical and emotional pain and has never been able to work again. He has to live with what he was partially responsible for. I would think that he has been paying for or punished every single day of his life and will continue to do so. Would putting him in a jail cell accomplish anything or make him really feel worse? I doubt it. Vengeance is a double edged sword. It does not accomplish what we hope that it will.

Humans, even highly proficient, skilled, experienced, trained, motivated professionals miss cues and make mistakes. It is also not just a matter of aspiring to higher standards. My personal standards always exceeded company and regulatory standards but that doesn't make me error proof. I have made some (albeit small, thus far, fortunately) errors and none of them would I consider to be "intentional." I have always found this disturbing/upsetting and then tried to mull over exactly why they occurred and how to improve my actions in the future. Complacency, is probably our largest enemy. An enemy that has to be fought against every single time we sit in front of a yoke. None of us are Sky Gods. Even the best, most experienced pilots that I have met and/or flown with over the decades, will readily admit that they too, have made errors/mistakes. It happens.

We can get into all sorts of discussions regarding incompetency versus a "mistake", what percent of the responsibility is with who, and all sorts of other semantics (legal and otherwise), but in the end, because we are human (which is not an excuse, it is a fact), mistakes will happen. Mostly, they are not tragic, but sometimes, they are. They happen with less frequency because of training, experience, safety features, etc. But they happen. No law, no amount of training, no finger pointing and no features built into modern aircraft will erase them all. If anyone believes that they are not capable of making mistakes/errors, they are foolish. Events can line up, progress and one bad judgement, one overlooked item, one lapse, may or may not cause an incident to spiral out of control fairly quickly.

What I guess I am trying to say here, is that we learn from our own mistakes and those of others by deep, complete and logical examination. We attempt every single day to be sharp, remain on our A game and deal with fatigue, physical issues of our surroundings, stress and so many other variables and issues, but we sometimes fail to be perfect. I would hope at some point, there is always room for redemption of some sort and understanding of the causes of bad events, and the entire circumstances, rather than just meted out punishment, which accomplishes nothing.
 
Last edited:
+1, add the fact that they engaged in non-sterile cockpit conversation to me that's negligent. Not an accident. If you knowingly engage in something that can distract you (texting, talking, eating) from your task (driving or flying a plane) you have now created a situation where you should be conscious enough to know that you have created a hazardous situation...

Talking on the taxi, well they did it so yeah a component of recklessness, not following SOP/fars

I always have to laugh when folks mention "breaking sterile cockpit" and want to hang people for it. 99.99999% of the time it has absolutely nothing to do with anything else. Unless the chatter was going on WHILE they were supposed to be actively doing something critical (setting flaps, running an abnormal/emergency checklist, etc) it is irrelevant. It was irrelevant in this case. It was irrelevant in the Colgan crash. I will further hold that if you're not able to taxi or fly a plane while making a comment or answering a question then you should never be anywhere in the vicinity of the controls of an airplane. Sterile cockpit came about because there are some folks who don't understand when they need to shut the hell up. Those people and times are few and far between.
 
I always have to laugh when folks mention "breaking sterile cockpit" and want to hang people for it. 99.99999% of the time it has absolutely nothing to do with anything else. Unless the chatter was going on WHILE they were supposed to be actively doing something critical (setting flaps, running an abnormal/emergency checklist, etc) it is irrelevant. It was irrelevant in this case. It was irrelevant in the Colgan crash. I will further hold that if you're not able to taxi or fly a plane while making a comment or answering a question then you should never be anywhere in the vicinity of the controls of an airplane. Sterile cockpit came about because there are some folks who don't understand when they need to shut the hell up. Those people and times are few and far between.
it was exactly when they were supposed to be running taxi checks, otherwise the damn flaps would have been out

its a mindset, are we serious about moving this plane or just cruising like we do to mc d's?
 
it was exactly when they were supposed to be running taxi checks, otherwise the damn flaps would have been out

its a mindset, are we serious about moving this plane or just cruising like we do to mc d's?

You're probably thinking of the wrong crash
 
The flaps were out. Want to try again?
just a reference to delta 1141

its not specific to just flaps or runway lights or spoilers being up at takeoff

If talking is going on not related to the checklist while you are presumably doing the checklist then stuff gets missed. I don't think sterile cockpit is a joke since it is a link in the chain for Buffalo or Lexington.
 
I don't think sterile cockpit is a joke since it is a link in the chain for Buffalo or Lexington.

Except it's not. While there certainly was non essential conversation during times the cockpit should have been sterile, and the NTSB certainly mentioned that sterile cockpit rules were violated, it didn't play a role in either of those two accidents.
 
Still carrying on this exercise in discourse huh?

Yeah yeah, burn the guy at the stake. That'll teach us something.

Pilot's egos getting in the way of how fragile our lives and careers really are.
 
I was PF on a night visual into RFD years ago and lined up on 7 while intending for 1. Saw a runway and went for it and became too busy trying to get down to the wrong runway that we missed obvious clues inside the cockpit. All three pilots in the 727 screwed it up (FE was probably asleep...hehe). ATC got a save cause they were paying attention. Maybe we would have caught it, too, as we got lower. Ever since then I shake my head at dumb pilot tricks but I understand how they can happen and have a "by the grace of God go I" attitude towards those who make similar mistakes.

Those Asiana guys excepted. That was just unbelievable.
 
Interesting indeed. I was fortunate enough to attend NJC when Al Haynes spoke and I will never forget his speach. For those that were not there he spoke very eloquently and gave a great presentation. Then towards the very end he stopped on one particular slide of someone carrying an infant child away from the crash site to mdeical care. He paused briefly and then spoke about the slide and introduced that very child who was now an adult. He had been sitting in the front row during the entire speach. It brings chills just thinking back to that even as I type this post out. You could have heard a pin drop in the room at that time. It was truly a moment i wont forget. I would think anyone there would agree... @Derg would you agree?

Oh yes.

And when that person stood up and started talking, "shizzle" just got real for a lot of people who didn't understand the gravity of the situation. Very real.

Amen.
I remember that vividly. I wouldn't be able to hear the pin drop though because I had a crazy bad ear infection.

It's too bad none of you got to see/hear the Sioux City ANG fire chief's presentation on this accident. While Haynes' presentation is outstanding and highly educational, it's the aviation perspective that most pilots only hear. Seeing the other side of the coin described, where the fire chief had to take over the situation from where Capt Haynes' job stopped.....post impact.....is a very compelling, informative and interesting perspective that very few pilots have heard.
 
Last edited:
It's too bad none of you got to see/hear the Aioux City ANG fire chief's presentation on this accident. While Haynes' presentation is outstanding and highly educational, it's the aviation perspective that most pilots only hear. Seeing the other side of the coin described, where the fire chief had to take over the situation from where Capt Haynes' job stopped.....post impact.....is a very compelling, informative and interesting perspective that very few pilots have heard.

I have no doubt that it is. I awoke the morning after the accident in a hotel on Rosecrans (@H46Bubba ) knows the street. I was getting ready to leave the next day for my first duty station at Pearl Harbor on the exact same airline and exact model of airplane. I remember watching the event unfold all day on the news. I am sure the non-aviation side of the story is just as interesting. And when Al Haynes introduced that toddler who was now an adult, that had nothing to do with aviation at all....
 
I have no doubt that it is. I awoke the morning after the accident in a hotel on Rosecrans (@H46Bubba ) knows the street. I was getting ready to leave the next day for my first duty station at Pearl Harbor on the exact same airline and exact model of airplane. I remember watching the event unfold all day on the news. I am sure the non-aviation side of the story is just as interesting. And when Al Haynes introduced that toddler who was now an adult, that had nothing to do with aviation at all....
Such a seedy place! Sure you weren't down at Le Girls? ;)
 
I have no doubt that it is. I awoke the morning after the accident in a hotel on Rosecrans (@H46Bubba ) knows the street. I was getting ready to leave the next day for my first duty station at Pearl Harbor on the exact same airline and exact model of airplane. I remember watching the event unfold all day on the news. I am sure the non-aviation side of the story is just as interesting. And when Al Haynes introduced that toddler who was now an adult, that had nothing to do with aviation at all....

I'm talking the non-aviation, but still operational side of the accident. Once that jet crashed and Haynes and his crews job was essentially done, a new chapter of that crash....the post-crash, run by a new captain and his crew.......opened up. It's just a very interesting "rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say, that gets little press, even though it had major unforseen challenges of its own, on a level similar to the aviation aspects Haynes was dealing with, but just from a ground aspect. In the same way Haynes and crew did the best they could with the situation dealt to him, many don't realize that Sioux City wasn't equipped (nor required to be) for an accident of this magnitude, being that it got nothing more than fighter jets and a few medium cargo jets and planes roughly DC-9-10 size or less, a day; and how they played the cards they were dealt with what they had available CFR-wise, was nothing short of amazing. Good stuff all around, yet the post-crash story gets very little attention.
 
I'm talking the non-aviation, but still operational side of the accident. Once that jet crashed and Haynes and his crews job was essentially done, a new chapter of that crash....the post-crash, run by a new captain and his crew.......opened up. It's just a very interesting "rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say, that gets little press, even though it had major unforseen challenges of its own, on a level similar to the aviation aspects Haynes was dealing with, but just from a ground aspect. In the same way Haynes and crew did the best they could with the situation dealt to him, many don't realize that Sioux City wasn't equipped (nor required to be) for an accident of this magnitude, being that it got nothing more than fighter jets and a few medium cargo jets and planes roughly DC-9-10 size or less, a day; and how they played the cards they were dealt with what they had available CFR-wise, was nothing short of amazing. Good stuff all around, yet the post-crash story gets very little attention.
Is there a JC or Air Warriors for fire guys?
 
In my (almost) lawyer opinion the FO of Comair should have been charged with a crime. Involuntary Manslaugter comes to mind. The thing is most airliner accidents, such as this, is that few, if any come out alive. At the same time, off the top of my head, I can't think of nor remember any airline accidents which the pilots were prosecuted. I think 5191 is a pretty good example of where one could have been charged, and when just looking at the law should have been. Assuming Kentucky law is similar to the laws I have studied.

Take this case for example: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/29/3786929/bus-driver-in-fatal-miami-international.html

A tour bus driver got lost, he was traveling through MIA and went under an overpass which the bus did not have clearance to pass under. The over pass is marked by several large warning signs along with signs showing buses where to go. He missed these signs and hit it right there which ended up killing some passengers. He did not intend to do anything, but he was certainly at fault for those deaths. There was nothing wrong with the airplane, the pilots in the Comair crash were 100% solely responsible for the deaths of all on board. If this happened on the road there is no question the driver would be charged. Why not in an airplane? Maybe it is a bad idea for safety culture. But I can't think of any legal arguments which should protect pilots in these types of cases.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top