Colgan POI forced out during Q400 certification

[zmiller4]

One fed?

It's THE fed. The guy that is supposed to make sure that Colgan is following the FAA rules, reviews their ops specs, operations, blah blah blah.

This is THE CONNECTION between the FAA and the company, not some random inspector.

See what Falconvalley said and Polar had posted prior to removal--I'm not saying the guy isn't totally honest, but I think there's potential for personality issues to play a role here.

/shrug

My opinion on this subject, your opinion zmiller, and (apparently) the FAA's opinion is irrelevant. But it's how I feel reading stories like this.

I understand how you feel; I just don't think it's necessarily tactful to call a company a craphole somewhere frequented by their employees.

 

[WacoFan]

I would be interested in looking to how the CAA and CAB ran things prior to 1959 and the creation of the FAA. Maybe CalCapt, Velo or Orange Anchor could weigh in (not a slam - you guys are senior enough to have flown with guys who flew in the airline environment prior to the FAA most likely). The FAA seems to run into conflicts of interest between their competing mandates (promote air commerce/safety) on a more frequent basis. I disagree with Jtrain - the FAA doesn't need to be split into two organizations - the NTSB becomes the sole investigator, the FAA runs aircraft certification, pilot certification, and ATC, and the Department of Commerce takes over all "promotion of air commerce activities". Shrink the focus of the FAA and offload the other areas to existing entities would be cheaper and quicker.

 

[FlyChicaga]

It's awesome to be furloughed from a good company and see stuff come out about craphole companies.

And it's not like there's any way to wish for what I want...I'm not going to wish for more people to die.

Are you serious? No offense, but our company is just as susceptible to this scrutiny as is Colgan or any other regional. We have had our fair share of "blunders," except ours have not resulted in a loss of life.

It frustrates me to no end to see our pilots getting so "cocky." There's no other word to describe it.

 

[Clocks]

A moment of frustrated weakness.

My apologies to anyone I offended.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Clocks, my post came off a little harsher than it played in my head. I wasn't intending to single you out in any way. It's only that I've heard our pilots in the past few weeks continuously hammering the Colgan 3407 crew, their operation, the Burlington incident, and so forth. The problem is, our own crews are making mistakes as well. Before judging others, we really need to make sure our own house is clean.

 

[BobDDuck]

Holy deleted posts batman.

Just as a note... I didn't post anything I didn't hear from at LEAST 3 independent sources... but I get the reasons for the delete anyway.

 

[Clocks]

Yeah I'm not one of those people that piled on to colgan. I know a lot of people did, and I think it's fair to group my post in with it. But there's a little voice in my head that says "CAL is getting what it's paying for" when I read about fast-tracked certifications and whistle-blower FAA guys who's concerns were ignored.

Any pilot can make a mistake. I made mistakes (none resulted in busted regs or bent metal, but with the wrong circumstances who knows). But light is getting shed on a management/business culture at Colgan that I truly don't believe exists at most airlines. Maybe that's ignorance, maybe I'm just looking back at xjet with rose-colored glasses. It's not the pilots' fault that this stuff happens, any more than it's the Taco Bell employee's fault that their food sucks. I just wish xjet as a business could afford to do the job it does at the price CAL is willing to pay. Obviously they can't, and there's nothing I can do but enjoy the rest of my 3+ year furlough. It's just frustrating.

 

[Polar742]

I went back and tried to catch up on the topic and noticed my post was deleted.

I have never worked at Colgan, or the FAA, nor have any inside track on the investigation, it's outcome or any testimony involved therein.

I do have experience to varying degrees of developing and approving various training programs, manuals, and certifying and adding aircraft to a certificate. I am by no means an expert on the subject matter.

I have absolutely no beef with any FAA inspector. They, just like anyone else, have a job to do and people to answer too. They have a set of criteria that they must use to judge whether items are in compliance or not. Unfortunately, even the guidance behind the guidance isn't always as clear as the inspector would like, or find useful.

The company has an obligation to operate within bounds assigned by part 119, 121 and the other applicable regulations that govern it. They also have a business to run, and different organizations have different tacks they take to meet the code and make money. Sometimes this causes conflicts with how the FAA would want things done.

At the end of the day, you are down to relationships and how they are managed. There is nothing that can change that. No modification to the system will every change how relationships set up in an adversarial manner, as the FAA and Company relationship must ultimately be set.

I have heard, only via other parties, how the Colgan organization is run. Is it true or not? Not my call. I'm sure many issues will come out in the wash on this one, as the NTSB process moves along. This will be a very interesting final scenario once all the hearings are done and the final report and recommendations are presented.

I am disappointed that posts that only, via conjecture, imply errors made are only the fault of Colgan, and their push to get the airplanes on the certificate were not deleted. Not a balanced look at how, in a practical sense, the relationships between inspectors and the company represented can run.

I repeatedly read posts on other threads how we shouldn't rush to judge causes, yet there is rampant speculation on this thread based on one news article and it seems to be OK.

 

[Killtron2000]

A short list of things I have seen a POI do.

Insisted on extra headset jacks in the right seat on all the planes.

Violation for a missing piper emblem on the yoke.

Insisting on training manuals that no one else has ever heard of including the new POI.

Couldn't figure out that a 24 consecutive hour rest period can begin at any time. Kept insisting that 3pm on one day to 3 pm on the next day didn't qualify.

Telling a part 91 operator they can carry pax as long as they include the ticket price as a packaged deal with a casino and get the pax to sign a paper saying they understand this is not a certified air carrier. (later this was shutdown by the FAA)

 

[Clocks]

Nothing new, but the FAA inspector interviewed on Fox.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video...//www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525250,00.html

Sort of an awkward interview...

 

[SoCalAprch]

...Any pilot can make a mistake. I made mistakes (none resulted in busted regs or bent metal, but with the wrong circumstances who knows). But light is getting shed on a management/business culture at Colgan that I truly don't believe exists at most airlines. Maybe that's ignorance, maybe I'm just looking back at xjet with rose-colored glasses. It's not the pilots' fault that this stuff happens, any more than it's the Taco Bell employee's fault that their food sucks. I just wish xjet as a business could afford to do the job it does at the price CAL is willing to pay. Obviously they can't, and there's nothing I can do but enjoy the rest of my 3+ year furlough. It's just frustrating.

I think it would benifit yourself to take off the glasses and look at it from an outsider looking in. Unfortunately for XJT when airlines go looking to subcontract lift they aren't looking for the most expensive product. Its pretty stupid honestly that some of the XJET cheerleaders think that their company is somehow the greatest when the company can't even figure out how to be competitive and make a profit. The situation XJT is in right now isn't really the first thing that comes to mind when I think about great business. All we can do as pilots is push for the best possible pay and QOL (which I agree XJT pilots did) after that it is on the company to run a competitive business and in my opinion XJT management failed. I have been on plenty of flights operated by many different subcontracters and XJT's service is nice but its not so much better that it calls for some kind of premium.

That being said I think this type of stuff would likely go on at any company trying to get a new aircraft certified and in service.

 

[Clocks]

I think it would benifit yourself to take off the glasses and look at it from an outsider looking in. Unfortunately for XJT when airlines go looking to subcontract lift they aren't looking for the most expensive product.

I agree xjet would be way way better off as a company if it shut down then reopened as "xjet2" with colgan pay rates, 72 seat planes, and undercut everyone out there. And maybe that's what the industry will look like in 10 years. xjet is probably the worst positioned to capitalize on that scenario. God knows pilots will be lining up out the door to be hired first.

 

[Seggy]

Unfortunately for XJT when airlines go looking to subcontract lift they aren't looking for the most expensive product.

Not true. When Jetblue had issues with their E-180s, they used XJT even though there were other companies out there that would have done it cheaper. United is using XJT even though once again there are companies that can do it cheaper. When AirTran had RJs, they used Air Wisconsin, even though other companies would have done it cheaper.

I will agree, cost is a huge part of these contracts, but not always the controlling factor.

All we can do as pilots is push for the best possible pay and QOL (which I agree XJT pilots did) after that it is on the company to run a competitive business and in my opinion XJT management failed. I have been on plenty of flights operated by many different subcontracters and XJT's service is nice but its not so much better that it calls for some kind of premium.

It is more than service. Safety systems cost money and XJT has one of the best out there. The safety culture at your airline was questioned recently with the E-170 in CLE a little while back. Safety cultures cost money to implement and run properly. That tied into proper pay and workrules all add up. Basically what I am saying is it more than service and pay for employees. It is how the company staffs the support to properly run an airline.

<....> Seriously, the pilots at your company are at a crossroads, stop looking and blaming other airlines management for the problem they are in. See what YOU and the rest of YOUR pilot group can do to change the momentum we are under.

 

[SoCalAprch]

I agree xjet would be way way better off as a company if it shut down then reopened as "xjet2" with colgan pay rates, 72 seat planes, and undercut everyone out there. And maybe that's what the industry will look like in 10 years. xjet is probably the worst positioned to capitalize on that scenario. God knows pilots will be lining up out the door to be hired first.

I hate to break it to you Clocks but that is business. Don't take it personally. If you can't remain competitive then whoever is running the company is screwing up. Granted the contract that XJT signed with CAL was extremly restrictive but thats what happens when management gets lazy, look at the Big 3 automakers, ask them how they feel about Toyota and Honda. By your reasoning it is somehow Honda and Toyota's fault that the big three are failing and laying people off? I see it as the big three management failing their employees and customers by not keeping up with what the market was demanding. If XJT could have offered competitive rates they may have kept most of that flying but because management for whatever reason can't offer competitive prices you end up losing it and furloughing and its somehow the other companies fault because they are "undercutting" you. I don't agree with that reasoning but to each their own...

On that note I do realize that the pilots at XJT did their part and got the pay and work rules that most in the regional industry strive for and it is really sad to see this happeneing to you guys. Hopefully the economy works out and the majors start to hiring again.

What was this thread about again?

 

[deadstick]

<......>

Dang, now THAT is funny!! True, too.

 

[SoCalAprch]

<.....> Seriously, the pilots at your company are at a crossroads, stop looking and blaming other airlines management for the problem they are in. See what YOU and the rest of YOUR pilot group can do to change the momentum we are under.

I think a majority of the pilots at RAH are on board and realize that this will be a turning point in the industry. But the same goes for the Colganites as Im sure you are aware. Its not just one airline its gonna take everyone jumping on board. Im not making excuses for anyone or any company just saying that its stupid for certain people to be blaming other management as I think you agree.

 

[Clocks]

I hate to break it to you Clocks but that is business. Don't take it personally. If you can't remain competitive then whoever is running the company is screwing up. Granted the contract that XJT signed with CAL was extremly restrictive but thats what happens when management gets lazy, look at the Big 3 automakers, ask them how they feel about Toyota and Honda. By your reasoning it is somehow Honda and Toyota's fault that the big three are failing and laying people off? I see it as the big three management failing their employees and customers by not keeping up with what the market was demanding. If XJT could have offered competitive rates they may have kept most of that flying but because management for whatever reason can't offer competitive prices you end up losing it and furloughing and its somehow the other companies fault because they are "undercutting" you. I don't agree with that reasoning but to each their own...

I agree with you, who are you arguing with? Xjet could improve as a business if it offered the same product at similar prices as its competition.

They could buy some 190's and lower the FO rates to $37/hour and probably find new business before the end of the year. but I have a feeling there's something more than pure business decisions behind why xjet management doesn't bleep over it's pilots, and that (maybe naive) belief is why I still feel loyalty to that company and hope for the best.

 

[SoCalAprch]

I agree with you, who are you arguing with? Xjet could improve as a business if it offered the same product at similar prices as its competition.

They could buy some 190's and lower the FO rates to $37/hour and probably find new business before the end of the year. I have a feeling there's something more than pure business decisions behind why xjet management doesn't bleep over it's pilots, and that (maybe naive) belief is why I still feel loyalty to that company and hope for the best.

I like the little stabs at different airlines low pay scales and aircraft as if you think it is somehow someone elses fault for XJT furloughing or even that XJT some how just started with the best pay in the industry. As you may or may not know negotiating a contract doesn't happen overnight and most of these airlines that aren't good enough for you are in contract negotiations and working to get back on par in regards to compensation. At this point I really don't care what other pilots think of RAH pilots and all I am really worried about is getting higher pay and better work rules. It is coming but unlike XJT can't just cuddle up with management and bang out a new contract overnight. As I have said all we can do as pilots is fight for the best pay and work rules we can get. Its up to management to determine how to make us profitable. You can keep thinking your company can do no wrong all the way to the unemployment line but I disagree.

 

[Clocks]

I think your management is screwing you guys to make a buck. I guess that makes me a bad person. I'll enjoy my new job, you enjoy the 190.

 

[Gonzo]

I like the little stabs at different airlines low pay scales and aircraft as if you think it is somehow someone elses fault for XJT furloughing or even that XJT some how just started with the best pay in the industry. As you may or may not know negotiating a contract doesn't happen overnight and most of these airlines that aren't good enough for you are in contract negotiations and working to get back on par in regards to compensation. At this point I really don't care what other pilots think of RAH pilots and all I am really worried about is getting higher pay and better work rules. It is coming but unlike XJT can't just cuddle up with management and bang out a new contract overnight. As I have said all we can do as pilots is fight for the best pay and work rules we can get. Its up to management to determine how to make us profitable. You can keep thinking your company can do no wrong all the way to the unemployment line but I disagree.

Do you know the kind of man you work for?