MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I ran the "no void time" question past a controller group. Here's what I got out of it from it. Emphasis and snips are mine. And, sorry,but I cant find a way to indent here
Most of the controllers took the position that they would never issue a clearance from a nontowered field without a void time instruction. But a few indicated they sometimes do so. As mentioned a few times here, It is going to be in an area without much in the way of potentially conflicting traffic. At least one of them said, there has to either be a release time or a void time but, as we've already seen, the language of the Section 4-3-4 of the .65 does not make either mandatory (and BTW, there is similar "when necessary"language in the IPH and AIM):
==============================
4-3-4. DEPARTURE RESTRICTIONS, CLEARANCE VOID TIMES, HOLD FOR RELEASE, AND RELEASE TIMES
Assign departure restrictions, clearance void times, hold for release, or release times when necessary to separate departures from other traffic or to restrict or regulate the departure flow.
[snip]
c. Release Times.
1. Release times must be issued to pilots when necessary.
==============================
So I guess controllers have the discretion to decide it's not "necessary." That's going to be in the situations already mentioned - a remote area with very little in the way of potentially conflicting traffic or in the middle of the night. Since a clearance typically specifies a low initial attitude with an expected time for higher, enroute traffic should not be an issue. So a lack of other departures or arrivals being a factor makes sense too.
But there still has to be a window. The controller who issues them fairly regularly said it was 30 minutes and pointed me to paragraph 10-4-1 of the .65. That paragraph deals with ATC's obligation to restrict traffic. Again it does not explicitly create a "default window." But it does suggest the existence of one, as well as adding to the idea that void or release times times are not required:
==============================
10−4−1. TRAFFIC RESTRICTIONS IFR traffic which could be affected by an overdue or unreported aircraft must be restricted or suspended unless radar separation is used. The facility responsible must restrict or suspend IFR traffic for a period of 30 minutes following the applicable time listed in subparas a through e:
a. The time at which approach clearance was delivered to the pilot.
b. The EFC time delivered to the pilot.
c. The arrival time over the NAVAID serving the destination airport.
d. The current estimate, either the control facility’s or the pilot’s, whichever is later, at:
1. The appropriate en route NAVAID or fix, and
2. The NAVAID serving the destination airport.
e. The release time and, if issued, the clearance void time.
==============================
That takes care of my pilot having a meal and a snack and leaving an hour later.
We have a combination of controller discretion and the amount of time before a controller considers and aircraft overdue and perhaps lost.
Still seems pretty loosey-goosey to me with most controllers saying they would not do it and the lack of information for pilots about it. And then there's @Fly_Unity's recent experience, which, given the controller's questioning, suggests there was in fact an error in the relay.
Personally, no way I'm taking a clearance from a nontowered airport with no explicit void time without asking a few questions.
Most of the controllers took the position that they would never issue a clearance from a nontowered field without a void time instruction. But a few indicated they sometimes do so. As mentioned a few times here, It is going to be in an area without much in the way of potentially conflicting traffic. At least one of them said, there has to either be a release time or a void time but, as we've already seen, the language of the Section 4-3-4 of the .65 does not make either mandatory (and BTW, there is similar "when necessary"language in the IPH and AIM):
==============================
4-3-4. DEPARTURE RESTRICTIONS, CLEARANCE VOID TIMES, HOLD FOR RELEASE, AND RELEASE TIMES
Assign departure restrictions, clearance void times, hold for release, or release times when necessary to separate departures from other traffic or to restrict or regulate the departure flow.
[snip]
c. Release Times.
1. Release times must be issued to pilots when necessary.
==============================
So I guess controllers have the discretion to decide it's not "necessary." That's going to be in the situations already mentioned - a remote area with very little in the way of potentially conflicting traffic or in the middle of the night. Since a clearance typically specifies a low initial attitude with an expected time for higher, enroute traffic should not be an issue. So a lack of other departures or arrivals being a factor makes sense too.
But there still has to be a window. The controller who issues them fairly regularly said it was 30 minutes and pointed me to paragraph 10-4-1 of the .65. That paragraph deals with ATC's obligation to restrict traffic. Again it does not explicitly create a "default window." But it does suggest the existence of one, as well as adding to the idea that void or release times times are not required:
==============================
10−4−1. TRAFFIC RESTRICTIONS IFR traffic which could be affected by an overdue or unreported aircraft must be restricted or suspended unless radar separation is used. The facility responsible must restrict or suspend IFR traffic for a period of 30 minutes following the applicable time listed in subparas a through e:
a. The time at which approach clearance was delivered to the pilot.
b. The EFC time delivered to the pilot.
c. The arrival time over the NAVAID serving the destination airport.
d. The current estimate, either the control facility’s or the pilot’s, whichever is later, at:
1. The appropriate en route NAVAID or fix, and
2. The NAVAID serving the destination airport.
e. The release time and, if issued, the clearance void time.
==============================
That takes care of my pilot having a meal and a snack and leaving an hour later.
We have a combination of controller discretion and the amount of time before a controller considers and aircraft overdue and perhaps lost.
Still seems pretty loosey-goosey to me with most controllers saying they would not do it and the lack of information for pilots about it. And then there's @Fly_Unity's recent experience, which, given the controller's questioning, suggests there was in fact an error in the relay.
Personally, no way I'm taking a clearance from a nontowered airport with no explicit void time without asking a few questions.
