Clearance Confusion

[Fly_Unity]

We were Departing K###, a Class D Airport that is under the shelf of a Class B at 11:00 PM. The Tower was closed. While the PF was taxiing the aircraft, the PNF called Approach on the ground:

PNF: "Clearance, Citation N#### we are on the ground in K###, Ready for Takeoff Runway ##, looking for a clearance to K###".

ATC: "N####, Cleared to K### as filed, Climb and maintain 6,000 feet, expect FL 410 in 5 mins, Contact Approach on ###.##, Squawk ####".

PNF: "Cleared to K### as filed, Climb and maintain 6,000 feet, expect FL 410 in 5 mins, Contact Approach on ###.##, Squawk ####".

ATC: "Readback Correct".

We then departed Scottsdale on the CTAF and contacted ATC after takeoff and said:

PNF: " Approach, Citation N####, 5,000 climbing 6,000 on the ### Departure.

ATC: "N####, Are you guys IFR?" (May have been "Did you depart IFR").

PNF: "Affirmative - We got a clearance to go to K###" (We were actually VMC and below the shelf of Class B Airspace).

ATC: "I gave you a clearance, not a release for departure. You were supposed to call when you were ready for departure". (We did asked for our clearance when we were ready for departure). He continued to berate us and threaten us with deviations for the next couple minutes until he handed us off to the next controller.

In Summary: there was confusion on the difference between a clearance and a release. ATC gave us a clearance and did NOT tell us to hold for release, or to notify them when were ready to go. We assumed we were cleared to go. Looking back we should have clarified with ATC that we were released for departure.

Question for you ATC guys. Is this legit? Anytime I got a clearance with a Hold for Release, I always heard the words: "This is a Hold For Release Clearance...". or "Contact me before Departure.." We did file a a NASA report.

 

[NovemberEcho]

you should have been told "hold for release". However, if you don't hear "released for derparture, time now 1200z clearance void if not off by 1205z etc" then you are definitely not released. Much like with entering a Bravo, if you do not explicitly hear "released for departure" you are not released for derparture.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Oh yeah and to add, if you didn’t get a phone number to call I wouldn’t worry too much. Just keep in mind for next time.

 

[Roger Roger]

you should have been told "hold for release". However, if you don't hear "released for derparture, time now 1200z clearance void if not off by 1205z etc" then you are definitely not released. Much like with entering a Bravo, if you do not explicitly hear "released for departure" you are not released for derparture.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard “release for departure” at a non-towered airport except when I’ve been on a hold-for-release

 

[ppragman]

you should have been told "hold for release". However, if you don't hear "released for derparture, time now 1200z clearance void if not off by 1205z etc" then you are definitely not released. Much like with entering a Bravo, if you do not explicitly hear "released for departure" you are not released for derparture.

I routinely get clearances through radio with no "release for departure" in the clearance.

Radio: "ATC clears N12345 from.the ABC to the DEF airport as filed, on departure climb and maintain XXX, expect YYY 10 min after departure, contact ZAN on ZZZ.Z"

Then nothing else and no void time. Whenever I've queried, "uh, verify I'm released for departure," the radio guys have always snarkily said, "did I give you a hold for release? If not then go fly." What does your guidance say?

 

[NovemberEcho]

I routinely get clearances through radio with no "release for departure" in the clearance.

Radio: "ATC clears N12345 from.the ABC to the DEF airport as filed, on departure climb and maintain XXX, expect YYY 10 min after departure, contact ZAN on ZZZ.Z"

Then nothing else and no void time. Whenever I've queried, "uh, verify I'm released for departure," the radio guys have always snarkily said, "did I give you a hold for release? If not then go fly." What does your guidance say?

If you’re hearing “ATC clears” then I’m assuming you’re talking to FSS? That’s phraseology only used when we are forwarding a clearance through FSS. Next time they don’t give you a void time, tell them ok I’m going to depart in an hour and then hang up. The whole reason void times exist is because we block the airspace for your departure and for SAR purposes so we know to send someone to look to see if you’re a smoking wreck on the departure end. “Hold for release” and void times are 100% taught at the Academy and in AF ATC.

 

[ppragman]

If you’re hearing “ATC clears” then I’m assuming you’re talking to FSS? That’s phraseology only used when we are forwarding a clearance through FSS. Next time they don’t give you a void time, tell them ok I’m going to depart in an hour and then hang up. The whole reason void times exist is because we block the airspace for your departure and for SAR purposes so we know to send someone to look to see if you’re a smoking wreck on the departure end.
View attachment 50889View attachment 50890

But are you required to issue a void time? Because I frequently do not get one. One particular place we go, our clearance is delivered to us from an employee over a radio phone with a handheld talking to FSS via phone, then they give us our clearance over the radio. I've gotten hold for release, but we've never been issued a void time there. Granted it's a remote strip on the arctic ocean with limited traffic, and we're likely the only traffic between there and Fairbanks, but still.

It's very infrequent that I hear release for departure, maybe 1 in 10 flights?

 

[NovemberEcho]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard “release for departure” at a non-towered airport except when I’ve been on a hold-for-release

hold for release should basically be said immediately after reading the clearance. Then you read the clearance back, then released for departure clearance void

 

[ppragman]

hold for release should basically be said immediately after reading the clearance. Then you read the clearance back, then released for departure clearance void

Right, but it's very rare to hear, "release for departure" unless you had previously been on a HR.

 

[NovemberEcho]

But are you required to issue a void time? Because I frequently do not get one. One particular place we go, our clearance is delivered to us from an employee over a radio phone with a handheld talking to FSS via phone, then they give us our clearance over the radio. I've gotten hold for release, but we've never been issued a void time there. Granted it's a remote strip on the arctic ocean with limited traffic, and we're likely the only traffic between there and Fairbanks, but still.

It's very infrequent that I hear release for departure, maybe 1 in 10 flights?

without a clearance void time you can take as long as you want to depart, whether that’s 2 minutes or 2 hours and that airspace and airport needs to be blocked the whole time To IFR traffic.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Right, but it's very rare to hear, "release for departure" unless you had previously been on a HR.

and that’s wrong. It should 100% be included along with CVT.

 

[ppragman]

without a clearance void time you can take as long as you want to depart, whether that’s 2 minutes or 2 hours and that airspace and airport needs to be blocked the whole time To IFR traffic.

Sure. But is it at controllers discretion to not issue a void time? Often I'm likely the ONLY airplane for that airport and going that direction for literally several hundred miles.

 

[ppragman]

and that’s wrong. It should 100% be included along with CVT.

Source? Just curious, because it seems strange that I would barely ever here that, and I get clearances on the ground at random airports ALL the time.

If I get a void time I don't think I've ever heard a "release for departure."

 

[ppragman]

and that’s wrong. It should 100% be included along with CVT.

Source? Just curious, because it seems strange that I would barely ever here that, and I get clearances on the ground at random airports ALL the time.

If I get a void time I don't think I've ever heard a "release for departure."

 

[NovemberEcho]

Source? Just curious, because it seems strange that I would barely ever here that, and I get clearances on the ground at random airports ALL the time.

If I get a void time I don't think I've ever heard a "release for departure."

source is the 7110.65
it sounds like they’ve grown complacent and have never worked an uncontrolled field that gets multiple IFR arrivals/departures.

 

[Roger Roger]

source is the 7110.65
it sounds like they’ve grown complacent and have never worked an uncontrolled field that gets multiple IFR arrivals/departures.

Trust me, ZAN is well practiced at handling IFR traffic in and out of uncontrolled fields.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Trust me, ZAN is well practiced at handling IFR traffic in and out of uncontrolled fields.

I would have thought so but this is basic •. But if these clearances are being forwarded through FSS then they could be the problem.

 

[Roger Roger]

I would have thought so but this is basic •. But if these clearances are being forwarded through FSS then they could be the problem.

Wonder if it’s a ARTCC vs FSS thing?

Edit: yeah you said the same thing.

 

[Fly_Unity]

Source? Just curious, because it seems strange that I would barely ever here that, and I get clearances on the ground at random airports ALL the time.

If I get a void time I don't think I've ever heard a "release for departure."

I'm with you. I think I've taken off in the middle of the night more times than not at remote air airstrips in Wyoming without a void time

 

[CFIT99]

FFS???? I honestly wouldn’t know how to talk to them anymore‍