Clearance Confusion

[MidlifeFlyer]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard “release for departure” at a non-towered airport except when I’ve been on a hold-for-release

A standard void time clearance includes a release time. Even if it were a screw-up from the facility speaking with me, my first clue there was something wrong would be not getting a void time at a nontowered airport.

Yes, a clearance is not a release. A clearance is a "what". A release is a "when." You need to be fit into the system given current traffic conditions. We don't get a "release time" at a towered airport because it is unnecessary. We are constantly talking to ATC and IFR release is implicit in our takeoff clearance. If we dint fit in just then, we dint get a takeoff clearance and will receive a "hold for release" advisory that there will be a wait.

At a nontowered airport, our window to fit into the system is specified in the language of the void time clearance. It is essential. There, a "hold for release" or "call us back for release" means they don't have that window for you yet.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I'm with you. I think I've taken off in the middle of the night more times than not at remote air airstrips in Wyoming without a void time

The controllers were wring unless you were in constant contact with them from the ground,

 

[Roger Roger]

A standard void time clearance includes a release time. Even if it were a screw-up from the facility speaking with me, my first clue there was something wrong would be not getting a void time at a nontowered airport.

Yes, a clearance is not a release. A clearance is a "what". A release is a "when." You need to be fit into the system given current traffic conditions. We don't get a "release time" at a towered airport because it is unnecessary. We are constantly talking to ATC and IFR release is implicit in our takeoff clearance. If we dint fit in just then, we dint get a takeoff clearance and will receive a "hold for release" advisory that there will be a wait.

At a nontowered airport, our window to fit into the system is specified in the language of the void time clearance. It is essential. There, a "hold for release" or "call us back for release" means they don't have that window for you yet.

I have a really hard time believing that every single FSS employee at 3 different FSSs I’ve talked to for 6 years has been doing it wrong.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I have a really hard time believing that every single FSS employee at 3 different FSSs I’ve talked to for 6 years has been doing it wrong.

OK, I'll buy that they don't have to. Maybe there are times when it is not "necessary to separate departures from other traffic or to restrict or regulate the departure flow."

So, assuming that to be true, what is your window for departure in that situation? None? You could get your clearance, have lunch, take a nap, hit the head, and an hour later take off into the clouds, figuring ATC will keep the airspace clear for you?

I know that sounds snarky, but it is not meant to. Really. Unless there is some rule or implicit "default" departure window (is there one?) when one is not given, a departure without being in constant contact with ATC makes no sense to me. If I got a clearance for a nontowered airport without a viod time, I would absolutely question it.

 

[Roger Roger]

OK, I'll buy that they don't have to. Maybe there are times when it is not "necessary to separate departures from other traffic or to restrict or regulate the departure flow."

So, assuming that to be true, what is your window for departure in that situation? None? You could get your clearance, have lunch, take a nap, hit the head, and an hour later take off into the clouds, figuring ATC will keep the airspace clear for you?

I know that sounds snarky, but it is not meant to. Really. Unless there is some rule or implicit "default" departure window (is there one?) when one is not given, a departure without being in constant contact with ATC makes no sense to me. If I got a clearance for a nontowered airport without a viod time, I would absolutely question it.

The only, only reason I can think of is usually FSS is patched in to the CTAF. Then again there are several airports we use where they are not.

And yes, it’s pretty common if there is no traffic inbound for us to grab a clearance as soon as the nurses report enroute from the clinic and be 15-20 minutes (sometimes more if something goes weird) before engine start.

The only time we get hold for release is if they have other traffic in or outbound, and the only time we get VINO clearances is if someone is inbound.

I suppose it’s possible that the entire state of Alaska is in normalized deviance on this issue, but like I say I find that a little hard to believe.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Unless there is some rule or implicit "default" departure window (is there one?)

If there is it’s not in the .65

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

If there is it’s not in the .65

I've never seen it. But that doesn't mean its not there. I do notice that all of the references to void times in FAA documentation talks about being permissive. There's nothing specifically saying, for example, "if ATC is not in continuous communication, a void time shall be issued."

 

[NovemberEcho]

I've never seen it. But that doesn't mean its not there.

It’s not.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I suppose it’s possible that the entire state of Alaska is in normalized deviance on this issue, but like I say I find that a little hard to believe.

That's certainly a possibility . There are a number of Alaska-specific rules out there. It's also one of the few places in the US where uncontrolled IFR is even close to possible.

 

[Roger Roger]

That's certainly a possibility . There are a number of Alaska-specific rules out there. It's also one of the few places in the US where uncontrolled IFR is even close to possible.

Right, but uncontrolled IFR doesn’t come into play here.

 

[gotWXdagain]

I have never heard “released for departure” unless it’s after a hold for release. If ATC says “cleared to” that’s a clearance.

 

[gotWXdagain]

And I’ll add that in the middle of BF nowhere it’s extremely common to get no void time from ATC, although I have always received one through FSS.

 

[NovemberEcho]

If ATC says “cleared to” that’s a clearance.

yes but a clearance is not a release.

 

[inigo88]

yes but a clearance is not a release.

I’ve always heard the release or hold for release issued after the readback of the CRAFT format IFR clearance. I.e “Released for departure, clearance void if not off by 1805z, time now 1800z.” Or “hold for release, advise ready for departure.”

I think instrument pilots don’t have great visibility into an IFR clearance vs a release, because at towered airports the pilot receives their IFR clearance on the ground and then release takes place between the tower controller and overlying tracon/center on the landline. At an uncontrolled airport the pilot is responsible both for receiving their IFR clearance and their IFR release into the system.

The Alaska / middle of nowhere examples are interesting, but likely an outlier to the norm. Alaska is also the last place in the US you will likely receive a “cruise” clearance where you’re cleared to climb, cruise, descend and cleared for the approach on your initial call.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I’ve always heard the release or hold for release issued after the readback of the CRAFT format IFR clearance. I.e “Released for departure, clearance void if not off by 1805z, time now 1800z.” Or “hold for release, advise ready for departure.”

but every IFR release off an uncontrolled field should have one or the other. In really don’t understand how they’re releasing anyone without a void time. That opens up far too many ambiguities.

 

[Roger Roger]

but every IFR release off an uncontrolled field should have one or the other. In really don’t understand how they’re releasing anyone without a void time. That opens up far too many ambiguities.

Next time I work (possibly tonight) I’ll call FSS and ask them.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

East coast, I’ve never not Received a release or hold for release. Sometimes it’s been a void if not off by xxxxxz time now yyyyz, if not airborn contact on 123.45 etc if doing it through FSS or local phone.

Simple solution to all this though, depart VFR and pick it up in the air - can’t get a wheels up time if already flying


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[gotWXdagain]

yes but a clearance is not a release.

It is if there’s no restrictions stated (i.e. hold for release).

 

[gotWXdagain]

For Reference, AIM 5-2-6:

2. Hold for Release. ATC may issue "hold for release" instructions in a clearance to delay an aircraft's departure for traffic management reasons (i.e., weather, traffic volume, etc.). When ATC states in the clearance, "hold for release," the pilot may not depart utilizing that IFR clearance until a release time or additional instructions are issued by ATC. In addition, ATC will include departure delay information in conjunction with "hold for release" instructions. The ATC instruction, "hold for release," applies to the IFR clearance and does not prevent the pilot from departing under VFR. However, prior to takeoff the pilot should cancel the IFR flight plan and operate the transponder on the appropriate VFR code. An IFR clearance may not be available after departure.

Emphasis mine.

 

[n156499000]

I quite frequently get my clearance from center on taxi out from the back waters of the Midwest and after reading back the clearance if there's no void time or hold for release I hear "you're released for departure, call me airborne" or some variation but I can't remember not being given a release in addition to the clearance. Who knows, maybe Minneapolis center just manages to do a more consistent job of remembering to release flights. My last few clearances relayed via FSS have had VOID times or departure windows given with the clearances, though I have one next week again that I know I have to go through FSS so I will try to pay attention to what Green Bay radio gives me just to see if it's different.