Clay Lacy

I never said i flew for clay although i did fly with him. I never mentioned training contracts, but since you did i'll admit to signing one with CLA. The second training session i went to was paid by the owner of the a/c, again i am not a cpl or atp, i'm an a/p with a ppl. I've seen people rise through the ranks at CLA and end up living very comfortably, some from MX some from Line Service some from the internships that they offer. They have a reputation but i don't think it's fair to condemn the company based on clays actions 25 yrs ago. There are alot of really good people there. I've also never heard of anyone having to take out a loan for training, sign a contract yes, loan no. But then again what do i know, all i do is turn wrenches which is way easier than flying the stupid thing.
 
knot4u said:
I never said i flew for clay although i did fly with him. I never mentioned training contracts, but since you did i'll admit to signing one with CLA. The second training session i went to was paid by the owner of the a/c, again i am not a cpl or atp, i'm an a/p with a ppl. I've seen people rise through the ranks at CLA and end up living very comfortably, some from MX some from Line Service some from the internships that they offer. They have a reputation but i don't think it's fair to condemn the company based on clays actions 25 yrs ago. There are alot of really good people there. I've also never heard of anyone having to take out a loan for training, sign a contract yes, loan no. But then again what do i know, all i do is turn wrenches which is way easier than flying the stupid thing.
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Did you miss the first post in this thread? When I was a flight instructor, one of the guys there left Lacy (TwoTwoLeft also knows him) because of the way the company was run and now wrenches on Skyhawks and 150's. I personally know someone who was a line guy there, who is also a member here, who quit flying to chase an ATC job, and he has Lear time. The constantly begged him to start flying for them and he didn't want to because of the pay and the contract. Like I said, contracts are a necessary evil. I don't agree with them, but I also don't disagree with them either. Who's to say you might train someone, send them to SF or FS and have them jump ship in a month or two and say "thanks for getting me current, Bu-bye!"


He treats his people exactly how they let themselves be treated. Even when I was down and out looking for work with time in type, I never took a job at his place. I just couldn't bring myself to make the low wages and have a training contract. It's gotta be either one or the other, not both.
 
He treats his people exactly how they let themselves be treated.

I can't and won't argue that point. I still think it's unfair to blame the current situation at CLA on clay, it's a big company with many levels of mgmt. . I learned a ton working there and i 'm glad, it made me a better mechanic and i learned alot about this business and the people involved. I love KVNY, i've been around there since the early 90's, it is not what it used to be. 10 points to you if you know what the "Rubber Bandit" was.:)
 
Wasn't that the experimental plane built there in the '90s?

Never finished, but they did have fun parties. Van Nuys in the late 80s early to mid 90s was a playground. Boris, It's his name on the hangar, do you really think he's dictating business?
 
knot4u said:
Boris, It's his name on the hangar, do you really think he's dictating business?
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Dunno, but if he isn't, it's his own damn fault, and his name that will suffer. *shrug*. I mean, one presumes that he's the one who put his name in giant letters on the hangar, right? I should say first, though, that I have no sympathy for a scab who's cured cancer, let alone any other.
 
I cave, there are lots of companies out there hiring young low time hungry pilots, make sure to tell them to stay away from CLA. Solid 135 pax time probably aint worth much. Nevermind the people or captains they meet. I've been wacked on the pee-pee by the mods so i'll say i thought this website was about networking. When you get a G-IV type i might be able to help. I haven't worked for CLA for two years.
 
mshunter said:
I personally don't care how well you fly. You could be God's gift to aviation. If you're an ass hat, you should be treated as such. I am willing to bet that the majority of the people who work for him did not know what they know now when they were hired, and once they are in a contract, it's very difficult to get out of one that keeps revolving(IIRC every time you go to recurrent, you pony up for that as well). And I am also willing to bet that most people who's airplanes he manages don't know much about him either.

From what I understand with Lacy, you get hired, get a loan on your own, and they agree to pay it back for you. So if you leave, you are for sure stuck with the loan. I get training contracts. They are a necessary evil. But if companies took care of their people, they wouldn't need to worry about them.
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Absolutely true.Chuck Yeager is that guy. Anyone who knows him will tell you he's a complete bag.

If any of you knew Nazy Hirani... Nazy lived next door to Chuck in Ca. Chuck wouldn't give him the time of day. For 3 years. Not a wave, friendly hello... NADA. Nazy moves to Stellar, and buys SuSu. First person to call him; Chuck. Says, "Congrats on the new bird. I'd love to come out and show you how to fly her." Yep.

Reputation in this industry is the only thing you got.
 
Canassis said:
Absolutely true.Chuck Yeager is that guy. Anyone who knows him will tell you he's a complete bag.

If any of you knew Nazy Hirani... Nazy lived next door to Chuck in Ca. Chuck wouldn't give him the time of day. For 3 years. Not a wave, friendly hello... NADA. Nazy moves to Stellar, and buys SuSu. First person to call him; Chuck. Says, "Congrats on the new bird. I'd love to come out and show you how to fly her." Yep.

Reputation in this industry is the only thing you got.
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A reputable source once told me that Yeager was in First on a certain large domestic carrier that must remain nameless. When he got on, he came up to the front, grabbed the PA handset and said,

"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is General Chuck Yeager. Just wanted to let you know that I'm around and that if these boys can't handle it, I've got it."

Yeeeeeeeep. He is that guy.
 
I guess everyone who has ever worked for clay has been tainted by his actions. All of the pilots, mechanics and ops people should be judged not on individual merit but on the fact they worked for an old man that alot of people don't like. Sounds fair, i'm not defending clay but i will stand side by side with alot of the people who work there.
 
While Clay Lacy crossing a picket line may be a fact (which by the way has not been proven; showing a copy of some union's scab list is not proof), calling him (or anyone) a scab is, ultimately, a matter of opinion. "Scab" is a unionist's concept, not one shared universally. Just look at this forum. How many people have referred to others as a "scab" even though they did not match the union definition on one? Whoever updated that Wiki could find himself in a world of trouble. It's one thing to hold the opinion. It's another to put it in writing for all the world to see.

But that is neither here nor there. What I find interesting is all the complaints about how Clay Lacy "forced" people to work for below average wages, or to pay training costs... as though these people were indentured servants without free will. No one can "force" you to do anything. So if you have a beef with someone who paid for training, take it up with that individual, not the employer who "forced" (so-called) to do so.
 
O&M said:
But that is neither here nor there. What I find interesting is all the complaints about how Clay Lacy "forced" people to work for below average wages, or to pay training costs... as though these people were indentured servants without free will. No one can "force" you to do anything. So if you have a beef with someone who paid for training, take it up with that individual, not the employer who "forced" (so-called) to do so.
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I hope my original post didn't imply that I though CLay Lacy forced anyone to work in such conditions. My beef is really with those who accept such jobs under the impression that it's the only way to the top. My complaint with CLA is that they take advantage of individuals, but they can't take advantage of the unwilling. I didn't expect my mini rant to get so many responses. I guess my real intent with the original post was to make us all sit back and take a look at the industry and how our actions today affect those who come after us. I personally don't make bank and I don't fly a G550, but I'm not willing to invest any more of my own money to get such a job. I'll invest all the time it takes, but I'm a professional and I intend to be compensated for my time investment in whatever companies I work for. Hours in a logbook and "experience" are not the compensation I work for. The people coming up the ranks behind us don't need us to make it anymore difficult/exspensive for them. I've had plenty of people in the past tell me I'm not qualified for a job, but never once did I say "well, what if I do it for free," or "perhaps if I take care of my own training you could use me."
 
Perhaps i've been looking at this thread the wrong way. Remove clay from the conversation and look at the company, it's no worse or sometimes better than what's available elsewhere. I enjoyed my time there and i value the friends i made. It's the largest 135 op at KVNY and has been around for 40 yrs. Ignoring a possible way to advance based on what happened 25 yrs ago seems silly. CLA runs the way it does because the workforce allows it, clay is an easy target for young disgruntled pilots. In my time there i saw young hungry pilots flying LR35s and complaining, Lead pilots flying G550s and complaining, but i've also seen very happy people flying hawkers, gulfstreams, and other airframes. I think it depends on your "character". Isn't the first couple of years supposed to be difficult or do you think everyone should be where you are without paying those dues.
 
knot4u said:
I guess everyone who has ever worked for clay has been tainted by his actions. All of the pilots, mechanics and ops people should be judged not on individual merit but on the fact they worked for an old man that alot of people don't like. Sounds fair, i'm not defending clay but i will stand side by side with alot of the people who work there.
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I don't think anyone has said or implied that at all.
 
O&M said:
While Clay Lacy crossing a picket line may be a fact (which by the way has not been proven; showing a copy of some union's scab list is not proof), calling him (or anyone) a scab is, ultimately, a matter of opinion. "Scab" is a unionist's concept, not one shared universally.
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No, "scab" has a universally recognized dictionary definition. It's not a matter of opinion. Crossing a union picket line makes you a scab. Period. Look it up in your favorite dictionary. In the Dunn v. ALPA litigation, the judge ruled that calling someone a scab (yes, even in print) is not libel or slander if the person in question did in fact cross a picket line. Why? Because the word scab has a definition, and making factually correct statements is not libel or slander.
 
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