Civilian to military

[MikeD]

For the guard I will go to AMS, IFS then UPT. The unit I was hired at was telling me they could possibly get IFS waived but I think I would like to go just so when I get to upt I will have some idea how the military does things. I have no illusions about how different things are going to be in the military so hopefully I'll be able to get acclimated pretty quick and not be one of those guys who can't break old habits.

You really don't need IFS, you can go to UPT just fine without it. I did. Why deal with one more bit of ass pain for no reason? Plus, being Guard/Reserve, they're the ones paying for it, so they might not want to put out the money if they don't have to.

Don't sweat the small stuff. You have all the answers you need in the replies here.

Which unit did you get hired on with?

 

[Hacker15e]

I have a different view on IFS.

Since the whole point of IFS is to screen for adaptation to the USAF way of training (and not just 'flying'), I think that it presents a great opportunity to learn that with a low flying performance threshold.

Obviously from a stick-and-rudder standpoint, there's no value added at IFS for someone of your experience level (except, of course, if you've become an FMS baby during your time at the regionals and are weak on your actual flying). From a boldface, ops limits, stand-up-EP, EPQ, USAF flying terminology, procedures, etc, I think it is a very valuable lead-in to UPT.

I went to UPT in the late 90s just after the T-3 had been grounded. My class was split with only a couple folks with any sort of flying experience and nearly everyone else having nothing. The guys who had been to EFSP (that was the old T-3 program -- Enhanced Flight Screening Program) did the best in Tweets, followed by those of us with some GA time but no exposure to the USAF flying training mechanism.

I have seen a number of high time civilian pilots run into problems in SUPT specifically because of those aforementioned differences between military and civilian flying, and the failure of those civilian guys to adapt to military rules, procedures, attitudes, mentalities, etc.

From a practical standpoint, MikeD is right -- why expose yourself to a program that could wash you out. That's valid risk management. On the other hand, it could provide you with the back-to-the-flying-basics as well as the SUPT environment prep that could spell success.

 

[The Fez]

I have a different view on IFS.

Since the whole point of IFS is to screen for adaptation to the USAF way of training (and not just 'flying'), I think that it presents a great opportunity to learn that with a low flying performance threshold.

Obviously from a stick-and-rudder standpoint, there's no value added at IFS for someone of your experience level (except, of course, if you've become an FMS baby during your time at the regionals and are weak on your actual flying). From a boldface, ops limits, stand-up-EP, EPQ, USAF flying terminology, procedures, etc, I think it is a very valuable lead-in to UPT.

I went to UPT in the late 90s just after the T-3 had been grounded. My class was split with only a couple folks with any sort of flying experience and nearly everyone else having nothing. The guys who had been to EFSP (that was the old T-3 program -- Enhanced Flight Screening Program) did the best in Tweets, followed by those of us with some GA time but no exposure to the USAF flying training mechanism.

I have seen a number of high time civilian pilots run into problems in SUPT specifically because of those aforementioned differences between military and civilian flying, and the failure of those civilian guys to adapt to military rules, procedures, attitudes, mentalities, etc.

From a practical standpoint, MikeD is right -- why expose yourself to a program that could wash you out. That's valid risk management. On the other hand, it could provide you with the back-to-the-flying-basics as well as the SUPT environment prep that could spell success.

+1

Think of IFS as UPT prep school. The instructors also do a great job of being adversarial and unkind, very unlike you'll encounter in a civilian flying training program. They're not there to stroke your ego and keep you coming back to pay for instruction and flight time. They're there to create an element of stress and push you to work as hard as you can. People who did well at IFS usually did well in UPT, and the opposite was true as well. That's not to say that if you don't adapt well in IFS that you'll do poorly or even wash out of UPT. It's just that the military training style is not what I'd call "friendly". It is a job, and you're expected to work.

That being said, my regional pilot friend did well enough in IFS to profiency advance through several rides. Despite the fact that he found the program to make little sense to his collegiate-trained mind, he kept his mouth shut, played the game, and learned the procedures. The same applied to UPT. In fact, he struggled with a lot of the T-6 program. Once he got back into his comfort zone in the T-1 he breezed through. He's a 135 guy as well, so your experiences could very well be similar.

There's some good advice from some very experienced dudes on here. Try to absorb as much as you can and I'm sure you'll find what works for you and what doesn't.

 

[MikeD]

I have a different view on IFS.

Since the whole point of IFS is to screen for adaptation to the USAF way of training (and not just 'flying'), I think that it presents a great opportunity to learn that with a low flying performance threshold.

Obviously from a stick-and-rudder standpoint, there's no value added at IFS for someone of your experience level (except, of course, if you've become an FMS baby during your time at the regionals and are weak on your actual flying). From a boldface, ops limits, stand-up-EP, EPQ, USAF flying terminology, procedures, etc, I think it is a very valuable lead-in to UPT.

I went to UPT in the late 90s just after the T-3 had been grounded. My class was split with only a couple folks with any sort of flying experience and nearly everyone else having nothing. The guys who had been to EFSP (that was the old T-3 program -- Enhanced Flight Screening Program) did the best in Tweets, followed by those of us with some GA time but no exposure to the USAF flying training mechanism.

I have seen a number of high time civilian pilots run into problems in SUPT specifically because of those aforementioned differences between military and civilian flying, and the failure of those civilian guys to adapt to military rules, procedures, attitudes, mentalities, etc.

From a practical standpoint, MikeD is right -- why expose yourself to a program that could wash you out. That's valid risk management. On the other hand, it could provide you with the back-to-the-flying-basics as well as the SUPT environment prep that could spell success.

I think there's pros and cons to going to IFS. I agree there are good details to be learned there as an intro to USAF and UPT flying and how its done, but I too was in the same boat regarding IFS as you were......there being no IFS due to the T-3 debacle. In my own experience, UPT was not really a problem to pick up in terms of the things that would've been learned in IFS, mainly because I was able to devote the time to the USAF nuances due to the previous civilian experience I could fall back on for the flying and academics stuff, as well as the open-minded attitude towards receiving the instruction and doing it the USAF way. I believe those two things were key to UPT being fairly low threat for me, even without having gone to IFS. As I look at it, with those aforementioned points, IFS is desireable, but not critical, for someone in my boat.....and by extension the OP...... as his boat appears similar. I only say that because the previous experience, as well as the open and sponging attitude I did my best to always have as well as avoiding bad habits; allowed me to do UPT, while spending my weekends as a reserve firefighter for the county, in order to have something interesting to do with my off time.

The main point is, previous experience guarantees nothing........it's what one does with that experience, how/where they apply it in UPT, and how well they receive instruction, IMO.

So there are definite pros and cons. I still think that funding will be a factor, since on the Guard/Reserve side, they have to pay for every course, so if there's money they can save due to the OP being perceived to have experience, they will probably do that. Whereas active duty, they can afford to send everyone. The only con being, as mentioned, you expose yourself needlessly to a potential of washing out of a program you didn't really need (desireable, not critical). And those items can be easily picked up in UPT, as Im an example of.......which worked for me at least. Don't see why it wouldn't work for you.

 

[USMCmech]

You really don't need IFS, you can go to UPT just fine without it. I did. Why deal with one more bit of ass pain for no reason?

A friend of mine was working for Doss Aviation as a CFI teaching IFS when he got on with a C-5 unit at Kelly. He still had to go through IFS as a student, even though his instructors had been his coworkers only a few months before.

 

[///AMG]

There's some good advice from some very experienced dudes on here

And for the record, I'm not one of them. Just a guy a few years out of the training command and my thoughts in hindsight. I think all of us are in agreement, but as with anything, your mileage may vary. I'm sure you will do fine, and unlike a lot of prior civvy folks, you actually have meaningful time in fairly high performance turbines which will come in handy. Going from 150 kts to 500+ was one of the harder things for me, and I would guess that you wont have quite the same transition to make.

 

[learhawkerbe400]

Thanks for all the replies guys. As far as IFS goes, I am going to make it known to my unit that I would like to attend. But, if they hint that it would help them out funding wise and would like me to try and skip it then I will be fine with that. It does seem like it will be a good back-to-the-basics type intro to military flying. It's been a long time since I've flown piston singles around or done any vfr flying for that matter.

I'm not really worried about washing out because if I have a hard time in IFS it's not like UPT will be any easier and those issues will pop up somewhere along the line. I think as long as I keep a good attitude and work hard I won't have any issues.

Thanks again

 

[GX]

Sorry for being misleading in what I said. I think what we saw and you'll grow accustomed to is the difference in mentality, and maturity between the O and E levels. My experience was as I posted. I'm reasonably certain that at the O level, it will be different. It's just a different level of maturity.

Know that as you start this adventure all of us, collectively, want you to win, and want you to succeed. We're all here to help you through this process. There are Senior guys here that will help you if you''re in a sticky situation. I'm know for fact that if you tap any of these guys for help, they'll be willing to help you out.

Good luck! We look forward to hearing about your progress.

 

[Soku39]

As a prior time guy coming into UPT, I must say learning formation in the T-6 has been the most humbling thing I've experienced since I first started flying however many years ago. Keep an open mind man the AF does things just a bit more differently, the bold face, the procedures, the teamwork aspect etc etc. Don't forget to the instructors you're just a dude that has a name patch with no wings on it.

 

[ryan1234]

+1

Think of IFS as UPT prep school. The instructors also do a great job of being adversarial and unkind, very unlike you'll encounter in a civilian flying training program. They're not there to stroke your ego and keep you coming back to pay for instruction and flight time. They're there to create an element of stress and push you to work as hard as you can. People who did well at IFS usually did well in UPT, and the opposite was true as well. That's not to say that if you don't adapt well in IFS that you'll do poorly or even wash out of UPT. It's just that the military training style is not what I'd call "friendly". It is a job, and you're expected to work.

That being said, my regional pilot friend did well enough in IFS to profiency advance through several rides. Despite the fact that he found the program to make little sense to his collegiate-trained mind, he kept his mouth shut, played the game, and learned the procedures. The same applied to UPT. In fact, he struggled with a lot of the T-6 program. Once he got back into his comfort zone in the T-1 he breezed through. He's a 135 guy as well, so your experiences could very well be similar.

There's some good advice from some very experienced dudes on here. Try to absorb as much as you can and I'm sure you'll find what works for you and what doesn't.

I thought AF IFS was a great program... The instructors were 100% professional and very on top of their game.

To the OP:
I didn't have the regional pilot background when going to IFS, just one in business jets and warbirds. If you have significant time they'll treat you different, you may be able to BS with the instructors a bit, laugh and joke... but they'll also expect more from you... They'll probably call you up the first day for a stand-up EP, which is not too bad... just have to know what you need to know and use your brain to analyze the rest. It wasn't too stressful of an environment... as a matter of fact, I enjoyed the faster pace... briefing/debriefing, etc. No matter what your skill level is, and they'll ask you about it several times, they'll try to push you to being perfect on every ride. While your buddies may be happy getting "Goods" and "Fairs", you'll probably try to get "Excellents"... because you should. Getting PA'd or Excellents on every ride doesn't do anything for you... but it's just good to keep pushing yourself to be on top of your game. You should absolutely help out your classmates. Everyone will probably find out your flying experience... they'll come to you to help them understand what Center of Gravity is, and what it means to have 'flows' for checklists. You need to help them out, but don't sacrifice your own study time for it. Some of the zero time guys will really surprise you at how well they adapt to that type of environment and grow under stress.

You probably won't have any problems... but don't expect to breeze by, expect to take criticism, adapt and overcome. There is no reason why you shouldn't get 100% on each Academic test... and "E's" on the majority of your rides.

 

[MikeD]

I thought AF IFS was a great program... The instructors were 100% professional and very on top of their game.

Where are you in training now?

 

[ryan1234]

Where are you in training now?

Back in Pensacola... done with water survival, just waiting to class up.

 

[Superfly7XAF]

From what I've seen the guys with prior time, ie airline pilots, CFIs, etc usually do fairly well. Learning to fly the Air Force way is the biggest adjustment but the academics, flight rules, and procedures are very similar especially if you're going T-1s to fly heavies. Our top guys were regional pilots and never really struggled through the program.

 

[kaudbron]

Prior 121 guy here, I personally haven't seen any negative response to IPs knowledge of my background. I don't go around telling IP's either. Biggest thing is attitude, for prior experience guys from what I've seen/heard. Don't be the guy that sandbags your flightmates about your prior time, the only thing you will be competing against your bros will be DG, not track or drop, so they could really use the help/ mentoring. Also, I rented a Da-40(couldn't find a -20) for a few hours prior to IFS, not required but I found it helpful to beat the pattern a few times, and get used to a Diamond as I was a Cessna guy. If you have your stuff together they will PA you at IFS, allowing you to go home early. Depending on your start date, I think you might end up going to the longer AMS program... That is no bueno !!!!

 

[bottlenose]

Reserve baby, graduated back in April... I had prior time (CFI, CFII.. etc.) before going to IFS & UPT. I agree with what some others say about just being honest because the instructors will sniff it out. It's just usually a conversational piece and nothing more. Having said that, prior time helps for sure for most dudes. The thing that sucks about UPT though is the queepy s*** that will get you, and get under your skin... I wont bother to elaborate, but you'll see for yourself. Just be a team player and enjoy getting paid to get the best experience of your life.

 

[Hacker15e]

just waiting to class up.

Ahhhh....Navyspeak strikes again. Better wash all that out of your mouth once you get to flying with the Blue service.

 

[ryan1234]

Ahhhh....Navyspeak strikes again. Better wash all that out of your mouth once you get to flying with the Blue service.

The AF makes us show up for Muster every morning!

Ha... well, as you know, we found out we could drop EA-18Gs....

 

[///AMG]

The AF makes us show up for Muster every morning!

Ha... well, as you know, we found out we could drop EA-18Gs....

Nice, so you could never go back in theory?

Seriously though, I am once again in AF land (Tyndall this time) and I am once again impressed by the way they do business. There is a lot of goofy dumb stuff that they do owed purely to service culture (specifically light greys), but I think by and large they are good dudes. It's also cool flying with/against CAF JO's this time......just shows you that in spite of all the hating you hear in the stereotypes and on baseops, that they are really just like us at the end of the day. For whatever reason, they always seem genuinely excited to have us around, and seem to like to soak up as much about our flying as I like to about theirs. I think some of the more experienced AF guys on here might disagree with some of this, but it is my perception as a Navy guy looking in from the outside. If nothing else, they are fantastic hosts.

 

[Springer]

This baby was fun.....good ole Superstitions in the background.

View attachment 21259

This was more fun.....

 

[Springer]

Did I ever show you the class graduation books from 1962 to 1981 that I have from there?

Look for 74-01, bright orange hard cover with a T-38 patch on the front...1973.