Newcomer questions (I've read MT's pinned post - great info)

Victor's_Vector

New Member
I had a couple questions related to dispatch after reading the pinned post (which was quite helpful - thank you, MT) and I'm grateful for any insight you're good enough to provide.

1). I'm not sure how to best ask this, but I'm interested in the reality of the pilot-dispatcher dynamic in situations such as
amount of fuel to be carried or routing to mitigate weather
. Per regulation & law, it's 50/50 operational control in Part 121 ops. Does it work out that way when the chips are down or do pilots sometimes take the attitude that "I'm the PIC and, Dispatcher, you just do my paperwork"? When there's non-consent between pilots and the dispatcher, how are those situations typically resolved? In a past professional life, I've been in spots where I had accountability without the ability to enact meaningful positive change and that can be frustrating, so I'm curious if dispatchers can end up here.

2). Does the future for aircraft dispatch (particularly in Part 121 operations) appear promising for roughly the next 30 years? Or could single-pilot (pilotless??) operations or other potential future major changes alter aircraft dispatch considerably? Obviously, this question is speculative in nature, but I'm interested in whether today's experienced dispatchers foresee any significant alterations to the job going forward.

3). While I understand that earning the FAA ADX certification is largely a license to continue learning and that the school one chooses to attend isn't as important as the effort an individual applies to the course, I couldn't help but be interested in getting the group's thoughts between 3 options that I'm fortunate to have in my backyard (DFW area). Is anyone aware of a reason to favor IFOD, ATP or Aircraft Dispatcher Training Center? (From suggestions in other threads - including the pinned post - and my independent website review, I THINK I have a leader in the clubhouse...but I'm also aware of the fact that I may not know what I don't know yet!)

4). I hope I don't come across wrong in asking this -
I'm not afraid to pay my dues if necessary and I apologize if even asking this question makes me sound arrogant -
but the message I've received from these forums is contradictory to what some friends in aviation (pilots) have relayed about my particular situation so I value your honest input here considerably. I have a
Private Pilot's Certificate
(Single-Engine Land only) & 150+ hours total flight time
and I've gained significant experience in operational control/management from several previous roles (I'
m a former military officer in a non-flying career & service academy graduate and, in the private sector, I've been a company's senior operational & technical manager in a heavily industrial line of work). Assuming I performed well in the classroom and on all FAA ADX certification exams (written and oral/practical), is my background that of someone who could be competitive for an ADX role with a Part 121 legacy/major (including LCC/ULCC's) airline? Or is it more likely that my initial opportunity in ADX would come with a Part 121 regional airline or in a Part 135/91 operation? A big part of the equation here is obviously the industry's current need for dispatchers and I've received mixed messages on this as well.

Again, thanks in advance to those of you with experience who take the time to share your perspective and I appreciate your help!
 
I’ll leave the other questions to the more experienced DX on here, but I will say that IFOD was really good to me and have no regrets choosing that school.

Don’t have any experience with the other two. If you want more feedback PM me
 
As far as your last question goes, a lot of getting hired at a major comes down to timing - a few years ago, a lot of people were being hired with not too much experience - but the rate of hiring has slowed down some, and now that all the major carriers have pretty good, well-paying contracts, they attract a lot more applications when they have openings - not just from outside the company but also internally. I don't know how competitive you would be to get hired as a dispatcher with a major or large LCC carrier, since most big airlines like to hire people with some practical 121 dispatching experience. Generally employers don't care too much about how you did in dispatch school - I've never been involved in hiring so I don't know if some schools are preferred over others, opinions seem mixed on this subject - but nobody has ever asked me what my final grade in my dispatch course was, or what I got on my ADX written exam. They just want you to have the license, and experience. I would say, based on your background, it should be pretty easy to get hired at a regional carrier, but they don't pay that well to start - generally in the $15 an hour range.
 
I had a couple questions related to dispatch after reading the pinned post (which was quite helpful - thank you, MT) and I'm grateful for any insight you're good enough to provide.

1). I'm not sure how to best ask this, but I'm interested in the reality of the pilot-dispatcher dynamic in situations such as
amount of fuel to be carried or routing to mitigate weather
. Per regulation & law, it's 50/50 operational control in Part 121 ops. Does it work out that way when the chips are down or do pilots sometimes take the attitude that "I'm the PIC and, Dispatcher, you just do my paperwork"? When there's non-consent between pilots and the dispatcher, how are those situations typically resolved? In a past professional life, I've been in spots where I had accountability without the ability to enact meaningful positive change and that can be frustrating, so I'm curious if dispatchers can end up here.

2). Does the future for aircraft dispatch (particularly in Part 121 operations) appear promising for roughly the next 30 years? Or could single-pilot (pilotless??) operations or other potential future major changes alter aircraft dispatch considerably? Obviously, this question is speculative in nature, but I'm interested in whether today's experienced dispatchers foresee any significant alterations to the job going forward.

3). While I understand that earning the FAA ADX certification is largely a license to continue learning and that the school one chooses to attend isn't as important as the effort an individual applies to the course, I couldn't help but be interested in getting the group's thoughts between 3 options that I'm fortunate to have in my backyard (DFW area). Is anyone aware of a reason to favor IFOD, ATP or Aircraft Dispatcher Training Center? (From suggestions in other threads - including the pinned post - and my independent website review, I THINK I have a leader in the clubhouse...but I'm also aware of the fact that I may not know what I don't know yet!)

4). I hope I don't come across wrong in asking this -
I'm not afraid to pay my dues if necessary and I apologize if even asking this question makes me sound arrogant -
but the message I've received from these forums is contradictory to what some friends in aviation (pilots) have relayed about my particular situation so I value your honest input here considerably. I have a
Private Pilot's Certificate
(Single-Engine Land only) & 150+ hours total flight time



and I've gained significant experience in operational control/management from several previous roles (I'
m a former military officer in a non-flying career & service academy graduate and, in the private sector, I've been a company's senior operational & technical manager in a heavily industrial line of work). Assuming I performed well in the classroom and on all FAA ADX certification exams (written and oral/practical), is my background that of someone who could be competitive for an ADX role with a Part 121 legacy/major (including LCC/ULCC's) airline? Or is it more likely that my initial opportunity in ADX would come with a Part 121 regional airline or in a Part 135/91 operation? A big part of the equation here is obviously the industry's current need for dispatchers and I've received mixed messages on this as well.

Again, thanks in advance to those of you with experience who take the time to share your perspective and I appreciate your help!
Man you'd be fun to have coffee with. I did dispatch for years because it was my backup, finally went airline been flying for more than decade.

1)I have disagreed with a dispatcher about fuel and alternate but I said, "I'd keep an eye on JAX weather because if it does what TAF says and the alternate does what the alternate says I'll probably be in RDU and I'll let you know when i have time. I was a dispatcher so I'm nearly positive that was someone elses work handed over when he came on shift and was simply doing his best to not take a delay.

2) i assume as some point as tech is better dispatcher need will go down. Just like the rest of population the baby boomers are retiring so youll have opportunities through retirements. Also you're a good thinker, so do dispatch but you might be destined for higher levels. One of our old dispatchers became ceo (uncle jingle pants, a tale told only with beer).

3) no idea, sorry

4) welcome. I normally have a funny thing i post up in celebration i dont have access to it now but I'll catch ya on flip side.

I'll leave the rest to current dispatchers but hi and welcome.
 
I'll put my 2 cents worth in.

1) Me personally, I explain in the release how I came up with the fuel load that I did. If the Captain is going to ask for way more than what I see I will ask him to explain it just in case I missed something. If I don't get a logical answer I will offer a reduced amount and that usually works. I don't have time and I will not argue with a Captain. Also one can tell by the tone used how this will play out and it is better at times just to bite ones lip. Of course that doesn't mean you should be a door mat. If you feel said Captain was being a total donkey, the company should have a way of dealing with those type of events.

2) As for the future, that is anyone's guess. Do I see dispatchers going away, no. Even with a fully automated flight planning systems, it can't do what is actually happening on a daily basis and the flight crew won't have the time to deal with it. There will always be a need for some type of operational control, how that gets defined and the scope might change, but the control function will be there. Also I imagine that an airlines insurance would change drastically without it. Thus even though the FARS might not require dispatchers, the insurance company might. A lot of 135 operations are now having licensed dispatchers and I guarantee one reason is insurance.

3) The which school has been hashed and rehashed. Go to the one that best suits your needs, it could be time, money, location, how you felt talking to them. There is no right or wrong choice per se. Yes some are considered better than others, just like any instructor. Getting the license is more important than where.

4) This industry is unlike anything else out there. Airlines could be struggling when the rest of the economy is working fine. You could be hired and then laid off the next day. You can't change your background and I have seen people come into this career field from all aspects. The question should be - What did I learn in my previous careers that will make me the best choice in my new career? This career isn't for everyone but it seems those that have served in the military tend to understand this career better than most. (This is just my opinion with no scientific basis.) Which is a big plus. Delta does seem to prefer people with military experience.

Also pretty good chance if you stay in this career for any length, the company you are with will go through a bankruptcy. Will you be able to handle that outcome. I have been through 2 and it isn't fun.

As far as job openings, it seems very cyclic. It can be quiet for months and then boom everyone is hiring. So you have to be prepared for that. It might take you a while to get hired or you may end up spending longer at your first dispatch job than you planned. Best piece of advice - always have a back up plan.
 
Last edited:
1). I'm not sure how to best ask this, but I'm interested in the reality of the pilot-dispatcher dynamic in situations such as
amount of fuel to be carried or routing to mitigate weather

One of the things you quickly settle in to as a dispatcher is a desire for mission completion. As smooth as possible. Preferably on-time. Basically, throughout the day, you have one of your many objectives set as "I'm going to keep my phone from ringing." That's a good day.

Now, you and the pilots have the same goals in mind regarding a desire for smooth conduct and mission completion considering all safety factors of course. For the most part, you find yourself in a mode of synergy as you familiarize yourself with airport volumes, enroute and terminal weather, and ATC variables particularly to your routing. You know what types of surprises to expect and most of the the time the pilots have the same understanding of those surprises.

Everything you do as a dispatcher requires an explanation. Maybe once in a blue moon is anyone really going to ask you to explain anything you did straight up, if ever. To people like management or supervisors, that is. Yet you will frequently find yourself explaining to a pilot without being prompted. This could be remarks on the flight plan, or a preflight brief. OR - when a pilot calls asking for extra fuel.

There are two types of pilots that will have the fuel chat with you. One will ask for it right away at the beginning of the conversation. The other might mention those aforementioned "surprises" that could occur and are kind of suggesting they want extra fuel. But you could talk the latter out of it by your explanations and knowledge.

You are likely not going to convince the pilot who requests the fuel outright. For whatever reason they give. Even if "it's Christmas" (true story). You might only be able to talk down the amount if their request really seems particularly unreasonable given your preparation and world of information at hand well before they walked up to the gate printer and only looked at how much they were landing with.

A couple of other topic threads are out there on the subject. But, for the most part, I don't and other dispatchers don't arm wrestle with fuel requests to the point of acrimony. You and the pilot should just have a nice chat as to why. Because, after all, that counts as a brief between the both of you. Captain might be seeing or anticipating something you're not. You -should- talk about it.

In the end, you don't have to necessarily agree that the fuel should reasonably be needed. If you disagree, write a remark on the release saying you "amended for additional pilot-requested fuel." If you agree, write a remark on the release saying you "amended for additional pilot-requested fuel with dispatcher concurrence."

Either way, you're probably going to be muscled into giving the fuel. State your case if you still stand by it with their input, see if it's good enough. If it's not, you're not going to take a delay for a showdown. Put it on the Captain's tab (some flight planning software programs have entries to input the additional pilot requested amount), write your remark on the amended release, and call the fuel truck.

Then, you'll have to explain it to your nearby colleagues who are all wanting to know what the hell just happened.
 
Last edited:
Without trying to sound like a jerk, I’ll take a shot at your first question. The rest I have no clue to.

As a pilot, I view the dispatcher as a member of the team, with valuable and pertinent information to offer. There should be a respectful relationship that goes both directions. When that does not happen, then supervisors and upper management should step in to fix the issue. Is someone having a bad day, or is there a deeper issue?

Personally, I’ve never had any pushback from a dispatcher. When there was a disagreement on fuel/alternate/route, all it took was a phone call to rectify. Sometimes I was wrong, and sometimes the dispatcher was. In the end, a mutually agreed upon solution was achieved.

All that said, here are the 1%ers on both sides. Those are the tools that make it difficult for everyone to do their jobs effectively. (Here comes the “jerky” part.) If I ever encountered a dispatcher who was unwilling to work as a team member, the final disposition of the barking brake being released rests solely in my hands and until there is an acceptable solution agreed upon by both departments, that ain’t happening.
 
Without trying to sound like a jerk, I’ll take a shot at your first question. The rest I have no clue to.

As a pilot, I view the dispatcher as a member of the team, with valuable and pertinent information to offer. There should be a respectful relationship that goes both directions. When that does not happen, then supervisors and upper management should step in to fix the issue. Is someone having a bad day, or is there a deeper issue?

Personally, I’ve never had any pushback from a dispatcher. When there was a disagreement on fuel/alternate/route, all it took was a phone call to rectify. Sometimes I was wrong, and sometimes the dispatcher was. In the end, a mutually agreed upon solution was achieved.

All that said, here are the 1%ers on both sides. Those are the tools that make it difficult for everyone to do their jobs effectively. (Here comes the “jerky” part.) If I ever encountered a dispatcher who was unwilling to work as a team member, the final disposition of the barking brake being released rests solely in my hands and until there is an acceptable solution agreed upon by both departments, that ain’t happening.

That doesn't seem jerky at all. I respect that.
 
With the fuel issue, you are never going to "force" a Capt to take a flight he thinks he needs more gas for. An honest discussion with him why he needs it is fair enough and a good idea. You or the Capt might have missed something. If that doesn't work out then I'd get management involved and have a "pilot manager" speak with him and get back to you. Hopefully you can reach an acceptable solution for all.

When I was a brand new Capt I was trying to get into RFD with the autothrottles defered in a 75. Low vis and everyone else as doing CAT111 autolands and I couldn't do that and held for the wx to improve. I could have got in doing a CAT 1 autoland but felt the autothrottles were necessary for that. Me and the F/O had never heard of an autoland without autothrottles and it was not covered in the manuals or training. Dispatch was understanding and took my word for it. Gas became an issue and I diverted. Dispatch wanted me to go to SDF but they only had one runway open and I didn't feel I had the gas to deal with the cluster that could become. I "told" dispatch I'd be going to DSM because the weather was good there and they pretty much said "okay". As soon as I landed, my phone rings, and it's a friendly ACP wanting me to explain myself (this was possibly initiated by dispatch but I respect their right to cover their butts). I told the friendly ACP my story and he pretty much disagreed with my decision but I never heard another word. Turns out the 75 is certified for manual throttle autolands but it wasn't mentioned in the AOM or our training. I'll be darned if at our next recurrent ground school there was a slide telling us manual throttle Cat 1 autolands were okay...hehe. Still never heard another word.
 
As a dispatcher, most of the time you are working to get things moving. That means not making a big deal over smaller fuel requests. If its an ungodly amount or its weight restricted I will try to see why he needs the fuel before giving it. Maybe I missed something with the weather, ATC and in the case of weight restrictions, management may want to know why payload was offloaded.

It can go both ways though. As a dispatcher, I want to take as much payload as possible but sometimes you need the gas and this causes an offload. Most pilots want to take the payload if the payload bumped are passengers and some will want crazy low fuel loads to do it. These are the times the dispatcher has to stand up for himself because he might have pilots and management against him.

90+% of the time fuel is not an issue and usually both sides are reasonable. Its the 10% that causes the problems.
 
Question 1 is a great question.

I have been at a regional for about 16 months. I can confidently say I have had minimal conflicts with PIC's. The key is having sound reasons for the decisions you're making, and explaining it to them respectfully, and coherently. I get frustrated with fellow dispatchers, particularly new ones who are less than willing to listen, make unnecessary decisions, and don't take the time to explain their thought process. I've found if you make sound decisions and explain your thought process behind them it goes a long way. PIC's notice these things. If you have a track record, and they can trust you, you'll find yourself fielding a lot less phone calls. When other dispatchers you work with do stupid things, or are argumentative, it can have a negative effect on the whole group.

It annoys to me to no end when I hear fellow dispatchers complaining about how much "this PIC" or "that PIC" is an •. Sure, there's a few of those, but more often than not, you're getting push back because you're being hard headed or just being lazy. Communicate. Have sound reasons for the decisions you make. Explain them concisely.
 
With regards to the fuel issue, I never argue if a captain wants more fuel, unless it's bumping payload. If I feel it's a truly ridiculous amount, then I may log it as a shift log just in case management questions it. I have turned down fuel reduction requests before though, and in one case the captain emailed somebody about my unwillingness to reduce his arrival fuel, but I didn't get in any trouble for it at all - my supervisor agreed with me that the amount of fuel I was planning was not excessive. So yes, disagreements are rare, but they do happen, and if they get bad I also just elevate it to my supervisor and the pilot supervisor on duty, and hopefully work things out that way.
 
Question 1 is a great question.

I have been at a regional for about 16 months. I can confidently say I have had minimal conflicts with PIC's. The key is having sound reasons for the decisions you're making, and explaining it to them respectfully, and coherently. I get frustrated with fellow dispatchers, particularly new ones who are less than willing to listen, make unnecessary decisions, and don't take the time to explain their thought process. I've found if you make sound decisions and explain your thought process behind them it goes a long way. PIC's notice these things. If you have a track record, and they can trust you, you'll find yourself fielding a lot less phone calls. When other dispatchers you work with do stupid things, or are argumentative, it can have a negative effect on the whole group.

It annoys to me to no end when I hear fellow dispatchers complaining about how much "this PIC" or "that PIC" is an •. Sure, there's a few of those, but more often than not, you're getting push back because you're being hard headed or just being lazy. Communicate. Have sound reasons for the decisions you make. Explain them concisely.


Couldn't agree more on people calling captains names or having a 'list'. They and other departments are internal customers. Dealing with Pilots, Agents,etc is part of your job in disseminating important information to whatever departments or work groups you likely deal with daily. Working in Reservations or Baggage Resolution...now they get bitchy phone calls. I know because I did BRC for a year and half. It SUCKED. I find most Captains to be pretty cool. Except when they start off with...."I got a few write ups..." But it's really a long ass list

JK to all the CA's out there.

Never had any issues with captains on fuel. In the past I've explained my thought process in my remarks. In whatever form of communication in speaking to the captain I try my best to convey to them that I'm looking out for them and their crew. That you've taken into account weather, enroute wx, reroutes, delays, conditions of the field,etc. While you may be busy I think it's important they know you have thoroughly and safely planned their trip. That you're not blindly clicking through releases in between YouTube videos. That is another story.
 
Last edited:
If your profile picture is any indication, I would enjoy that cup of coffee together just as much as you!

Given your experience on both sides, I'm really curious to get your perception of dispatching compared to flying? Which do you enjoy more and why? What are the pluses & minuses of both sides?

I appreciate your help & insight a great deal.

Man you'd be fun to have coffee with. I did dispatch for years because it was my backup, finally went airline been flying for more than decade.

1)I have disagreed with a dispatcher about fuel and alternate but I said, "I'd keep an eye on JAX weather because if it does what TAF says and the alternate does what the alternate says I'll probably be in RDU and I'll let you know when i have time. I was a dispatcher so I'm nearly positive that was someone elses work handed over when he came on shift and was simply doing his best to not take a delay.

2) i assume as some point as tech is better dispatcher need will go down. Just like the rest of population the baby boomers are retiring so youll have opportunities through retirements. Also you're a good thinker, so do dispatch but you might be destined for higher levels. One of our old dispatchers became ceo (uncle jingle pants, a tale told only with beer).

3) no idea, sorry

4) welcome. I normally have a funny thing i post up in celebration i dont have access to it now but I'll catch ya on flip side.

I'll leave the rest to current dispatchers but hi and welcome.
 
1) I regard the Dispatcher the same way I regard any other member of the team. I expect timely, useful input. I respect their opinions, and unless I have a very good reason to contradict them, I’ll usually go with their choice.
On the other hand, I’m the guy in the left seat of the pointy end. If I’m not comfortable, I’ll change things until I get that warm fuzzy, regardless of objections from other voices.
Btw, had a dispatcher talk me off the ledge two days ago. I had called asking for 3k lbs additional fuel going into south Florida. I had misread the tempo for the alternate. Didn’t bother me at all. I expect to make the occasional mistake, and I expect the team to help identify and correct those errors.

4) I can’t imagine any Major airline picking you up without some experience. Fortunately, the entry jobs are out there, and the path to a major is relatively short.
 
Yeah uhh that first question is gonna keep my mind rocking and rolling for the night tonight. That's some SERIOUS thought, and I'll second that bit about coffee.

Let me know when the fresh pot's a'brewin'.
 
Ill do whatever the captain says for a job at American

Internet-Troll-962x1024.jpg
 
As for question #1....technically, yeah it's 50/50 and we have to agree. Not all Captains see it that way. I've had a few try to add 2000-3000lbs of extra fuel without a word to me, on top of all of the extra I have already given them. That's against so many different rules and regs at my carrier it's not even funny. The only reason I find out is because the station calls and tattles. It really pisses me off because I NEVER say no unless it weight restricts the flight when it's not really needed. But to outright ignore the release, operational control, company policy, yeah go F*%k yourself pal. Crews are starting to recognize my name and know I'm laid back and will work with them, but those who just go off and do as they please....I can't stand them.

They usually try to argue, or just continue to ignore me. If it isn't going to weight restrict or something then I drop the argument and file the IOR and/or SCR.
 
Back
Top