Civilian to military

, they always seem genuinely excited to have us around, and seem to like to soak up as much about our flying as I like to about theirs. I think some of the more experienced AF guys on here might disagree with some of this

100% agree. I was always very enthused to fly with or against USN and USMC guys. Probably the most interesting training flights I had stateside were against Oceana F-14s and Beaufort F-18s. Very interesting to see different ways of doing the same business.

Like you mentioned, I think often times people from the outside's perceptions are tinted by the inter-service, inter-airframe, inter-community jabbing we do (that 'ready-room talk' in the seafaring parlance) both in person and on the internet, which masks the reality of peoples' feelings and interactions in real life.

For me, when the rubber meets the road, we're all on the same team and each have strengths in our own ways of doing business that we should be sharing with each other (and, most importantly, interested in learning from one another).
 
For me, when the rubber meets the road, we're all on the same team and each have strengths in our own ways of doing business that we should be sharing with each other (and, most importantly, interested in learning from one another).

I agree.....




.....even if Naval Aviators are second class citizens. :D
 
We were joking that you had better have ugly wives/girlfriends because you have everything else..........but wait.......we have night traps and living on the boat....oh snap. :)
 
We were joking that you had better have ugly wives/girlfriends because you have everything else..........but wait.......we have night traps and living on the boat....oh snap. :)

I was betting on who was going to be first to respond.......you, Bunk, rodebnar, or C-182 flyer. I bet on Bunk, and I lost. :D
 
..but wait.......we have night traps and living on the boat....oh snap. :)

After parking our Phantoms after Friday morning launches, we were on the autobahn enroute to our swiss chalet for a weekend of skiing and wine tasting.:)

I do remember one time we had an EA-6 and an A-6 land at our base with broken planes; they were going x-country with only one operable TACAN between the two of them...standard Naval Ops? We had all six of them over for dinner. Great guys but after our chat I am glad I went AF.
 
After parking our Phantoms after Friday morning launches, we were on the autobahn enroute to our swiss chalet for a weekend of skiing and wine tasting.:)

I do remember one time we had an EA-6 and an A-6 land at our base with broken planes; they were going x-country with only one operable TACAN between the two of them...standard Naval Ops? We had all six of them over for dinner. Great guys but after our chat I am glad I went AF.

Still pretty much the same deal today. We are TACAN only in the Hornet/Super Hornet community, at least when not around the boat. We have ACLS and ICLS at the boat, but those don't work anywhere but at a few NAS's. I heard the Prowler now has an ILS, but I'm not sure if that is true.
 
Still pretty much the same deal today. We are TACAN only in the Hornet/Super Hornet community, at least when not around the boat. We have ACLS and ICLS at the boat, but those don't work anywhere but at a few NAS's. I heard the Prowler now has an ILS, but I'm not sure if that is true.

Are you going out to Tailhook this year?
 
Damn right I am. Missed last year, was there the previous two years. Unless I'm on deployment, I plan to make it an annual event. You? AF guys are welcome

Believe so... who knows maybe even Hacker will be out there.. I'll PM you about it.
 
I personally don't think it's cockiness or bad habits that causes prior civvy guys to have problems. Yeah there are some lowest common denominators out there that those things apply to, but I think the biggest thing is just an inability to adapt to military flying. It's very different, and everything that was once the hardest part of your flight had to now become like breathing......nobody expects you to fight a 2V1 BFM and then airnav back 120 miles to home plate as a wingman and land your jet at absolute single pilot mins on min fuel when you first start out, but that kind of stuff will be expected in a year or two and a couple hundred hours later. I think the guys with prior time that struggled were the guys who just couldn't drink from the firehose for whatever reason

THIS.

When I was teaching tweets and T-6's about 2-3 years ago, most of the guys who had significant prior time (everyone had at least IFS/IFT), did very VERY well. There were about 1 or 2 counter-examples, though. One of the guys who just sank straight to the bottom of his class despite his prior experience was just a bone-head. Not high on the common-sense scale, and not particularly book smart either. For that reason, he started out the first 5 or 6 flights ahead of his classmates... but they caught up and passed him in very short order. I don't know what he, or anyone else, could have done to make his experience go any better.

The other prior experience/airline guy that didn't do very well that I had experience with personally wasn't stupid... he was stubborn. There is some variance from person to person and background to background in how you teach the flying gig, and Air Force instructors do tend to differ from civilian instructors in some areas. For example, most Air Force guys tend to teach pitch for altitude and power for airspeed, and I gather that most civilians tend to teach the opposite (I've been taught by basically all USAF with some very small exceptions here and there-- so I can't say even from my own experience what methods "most" civilian CFI's teach). Most USAF guys, or virtually all of them really, teach the control/performance concept for instruments rather than primary/supporting. And of course the methods that the Air Force uses airplanes differs from the civilian world. The problem set can be different (depending on the airframe), so of course our solutions can also be different. Et cetera, et cetera.

As instructors, it is incumbent upon us to develop several different teaching styles and adapt them to the student... but as a student it can be even more important to try to learn from instructors who have different teaching styles or techniques than those with which you are familiar or comfortable. After all, as a student you need to learn the material more desperately than the instructor needs to teach it. If the student fails to learn... the student washes out. If the instructor fails to teach... the student washes out.

Student #2 failed to adapt, or to be adaptable, really. To be fair, his instructors were hardly god's gift to aviation... or god's gift to instruction for that matter. But they were all at least competent and adequate (and many were really quite good), and they were teaching him techniques that were successful for the environment that he was going to be operating in. And they ran the whole range in terms of personality type, from buddy-buddy nice guys to authoritarian hard-ass types. From technically-minded aero-engineering math geeks to the "keep it simple, stupid" history major types. He seemed to be unwilling to accept any of them, however. He had "great" reasons for why his way was "better," ... except for the fact that his maneuvers didn't match the required parameters. I wouldn't have classified his problems as cockiness or bad habits either. I don't even think he was being intentionally stubborn. He just had an unwillingness to give up a prior mind-set for a new one... so rather than being a sponge like his more "blank slate" classmates, with him, it seemed like a lot of it just didn't "stick."

Neither of these guys washed out, but they did bump along the bottom of the class until track select getting close to washing out on several occasions.


As for what to tell your instructors or fellow students about your background. Tell the truth. Lying is unbecoming of a military officer and against the UCMJ. Your background is your background, and any negative light you seek to shield yourself from by hiding it is going to be twice as bad if people think you are trying to hide something. On the other hand, don't advertise it either... and definitely don't try to use it to impress anyone, including (and especially) yourself. You're there to learn, just like everyone else. That's the attitude to take, IMHO.
 
I never offered up the prior flight time bit, but obviously told them if asked. Think it came up twice in primary/T-34's, and never again after that.
 
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