jhugz
Well-Known Member
Agreed...and that's how I roll but I know way to many that turn them on during start and leave them on till shutdown.
Cirrus Statistics (CAPS & Accidents)
- Thread starter jhugz
- Start date
Agreed...and that's how I roll but I know way to many that turn them on during start and leave them on till shutdown.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Pilots that have more money (>500k) than flight time (<500TT).
They would rather go to a boat show than an airshow. Truth to that, I was baffled, but then realized that for their target market, they would in fact be smarter to go to a boat show.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Yep...got hired by Cirrus and am now selling their airplanes.
stesta5074
Well-Known Member
jrh
Well-Known Member
Yeah, so why bother trying, right?
I don't agree with Jhugz on everything (particularly the statistics) but I agree with him fully in that the key to improving safety is through training. The plane is not the problem. It's a good plane. Nothing is breaking up or failing in-flight. The problem lies almost exclusively with the pilots, and their proficiency / decision making skills, or lack thereof.
Also, for those of you on both sides of the argument pulling out statistics to say the plane is either safe or unsafe...it's impossible to draw these conclusions. The SR-22/20 line is completely unique in the typical mission profile, age, equipment, experience level of the pilot, etc. We can't compare it to Cessnas, or Bonanzas, or whatever, because the factors involved are significantly different.
A better approach would be to say, "Ok, we have a high number of (insert problem here) accidents happening within the Cirrus fleet, how do we go about reducing this number?"
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
Well of course, why would you want to talk about some of the facts the other side brings to the discussion.
Anyhow, took some digging but here it is.
Hehe, that was from Oct of '07
Anyhow, if you read through the article you'll find those stats back then (I haven't had a dog in this fight for a while now) show the Cirrus to be a slightly higher fatality rate as all other SE aircraft. *shrug*
Pull early Pull often. That's what she said.
Read the guy's conclusion, it's worth your time.
Cheers, and remember, if you say it enough times, everyone else will eventually give up talking to you and you can finally have the place to yourself.
Stats like that are worthless, you take these singles:Cessna, Piper, Diamond, and look at fatality rates. They are gonna be lower, why? Because what percentage do you think every flight there is a CFI sitting in the right seat? HUGE. Now look at Cirrus, it is not a training airplane, with the exeption of initial transition training, there is not that CFI sitting in the right seat of these aircraft.
Now lets take Cirrus fatalities vs every time a CFI has saved his own life in a training single... Now that would be more believable...
My point, its not the airplane, it's the people flying them....
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
Kinetic enegery. The kinetic energy of a SR-22 loaded up is going to be signficantly higher than that of a loaded 172/PA28/DA40. The more kenetic engery, the higher the chances of dying are going to be when you hit something hard.
Go look at the crash rates on some of the LSA's. Some of them have crazy high numbers of crashes, but few fatalities. They are so light and are going so slow, that when they do hit something, they have much less kinentic energy.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
A Cirri under chute has even less energy then a LSA though.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
:clap:
The training argument is a good one.
One of the stats that stuck out to me was that COPA (Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association) members were involved in far fewer accidents than non-COPA members.
COPA has done a good job pushing recurrent training, sponsoring pilot proficiency programs and decision making seminars and it looks like that is making a difference.
They've also really pushed a "safety culture" and I think their members get it.
Safety is a cultural thing, probably more than anything else. Training and proficiency are a part of it, but if "safety" isn't just part of your normal way of doing things the other stuff doesn't matter quite so much.
While I agree, and have said, that "you can't fix stupid" you can mitigate the effects somewhat by surrounding stupid with a culture of safety.
Sure, the stats were published in COPA's magazine but I have no reason to suspect they're anything but above board.
COPA drives me nuts from time to time (I've been a member since I started teaching the airplane a few years ago) but I think it's hard to argue with their impact on safety and with developing a safety/training/proficiency mindset.
One of the stats that stuck out to me was that COPA (Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association) members were involved in far fewer accidents than non-COPA members.
COPA has done a good job pushing recurrent training, sponsoring pilot proficiency programs and decision making seminars and it looks like that is making a difference.
They've also really pushed a "safety culture" and I think their members get it.
Safety is a cultural thing, probably more than anything else. Training and proficiency are a part of it, but if "safety" isn't just part of your normal way of doing things the other stuff doesn't matter quite so much.
While I agree, and have said, that "you can't fix stupid" you can mitigate the effects somewhat by surrounding stupid with a culture of safety.
Sure, the stats were published in COPA's magazine but I have no reason to suspect they're anything but above board.
COPA drives me nuts from time to time (I've been a member since I started teaching the airplane a few years ago) but I think it's hard to argue with their impact on safety and with developing a safety/training/proficiency mindset.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I've actual attended one of the COPA CPPP in Stewart, NY and was thoroughly impressed. It was a great recurrent event and the instruction their was top notch. All of the instructors had thousands of hours in the Cirrus dual given. I again believe is solely reliant on the pilot. I'm sure there our plenty of Cirri pilots that just pay the membership fee, attend none of the events, and not take an active step in their safety.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Jesus.
It's like I said, eventually everyone is going to get tired of talking sense on these forums and this religious nuts are gonna have the thread to themselves.
Long live the one hand clapping.
Cirrus should open up a second business... a church.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
We are trying to have an intelligent discussion about the airplane, safety factors, and pilots of Cirrus Aircraft without any hidden agenda. If you don't want to participate then hit the back button on the browser.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
No hidden agenda...you sell the airplanes. Ok, so you said you sell the airplanes, so that means the agenda is out in the open, but there is definitely bias there!!
I have no dog in the fight other than that. Enjoy your thread!!:beer:
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I don't really sell their airplanes contrary to poplar belief. I just think it is a solid airplane that gets a bad wrap. If nothing more threads like this help me interact with other CSIP/Cirrus Instructors and learn from them.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
All I did was quote you. Those were your words that you sold the airplane.
I haven't read all the posts, but some of the stuff I did read is definitely worthy of discussing.
Continue...
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Did anybody read incident #10? What is up with that? I have about 300 hours in the cirrus and occasionally the full caps aren't clamped correctly so fuel leaks all over the wing. I don't understand the concept of pulling the chute with fuel coming out of one wing.
They are reporting engine problems now on the NTSB report.
