Checklist question (removed from other thread)

Ian_J said:
Yup… it’s kind of cool to see how different carriers approach the same plane.
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Agreed! When I started flying the 757 at USAir, we had just switched to AA procedures for Boeings. It's a wonder the damn things weren't falling out of the sky left and right for how wrong we used to do things...AAcording to AA.
 
ERfly said:
Agreed! When I started flying the 757 at USAir, we had just switched to AA procedures for Boeings. It's a wonder the damn things weren't falling out of the sky left and right for how wrong we used to do things...AAcording to AA.
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To be fair, it was payback to USAir…they did the same thing to Piedmont in the 80’s ;)
 
BobDDuck said:
As much as your POI/CMO will give you. Since they have existed, Training departments have always thought they were smarter than the OEM and would redesign checklists and procedures to either match previous airplanes (commonality!), or their favorite airplane. Manufacturers make planes to be flown a certain way, and when you don't fly them that way it generates extra work for the pilots and reduced safety margins.

About 6 years ago Airbus generated a common set of standards for all of their in production aircraft (32X, 330, 340, 350, and 380). No matter which plane you fly the callouts, procedures, checklists, and manuals are all set up the same way. It uses best practices and allows for faster updates when something changes. We just switched to full OEM procedures (other than delayed implementation of FOs taxiing) on both our NB and WB airbus fleets. There has been a fair amount of pushback (mostly from captains not wanting to do walk arounds and not understanding the difference between CM1 and PF) but overall it's going to be a beneficial change.
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Give 10,000 monkeys an airplane, and eventually they’ll figure out the best way to fly it.

OEM checklists are a safe and thorough starting point- but often can be tweaked to mesh better with company SOP’s and actual line ops.

Ever been stuck behind a Netjets Bombardier crew that just started ? They used to spend 30min running checklists it seemed. Their lists had no flow to them, extraneous but meticulous checks. Go jump into a Dassault of Gulfstream product and the dark cockpit focus with flows goes much faster. Carrying ideology from one type to another can be hit or miss…. If 90% of your pilots will do something because that’s they way they have always done it- safely incorporating that into a checklist vs trying to relearn a large, stubborn Type A pilot pool may actually be the better answer.

All that non essential stuff…. Our OEM gives us guidance for custom checklist and procedure approval - within that scope our 91 poi is pretty happy.
 
Having been to ORD a couple of times now, and having gotten a full route clearance when #3 for takeoff followed by CPDLC crapping the bed, I’m doubling down on auto-sensing ECLs. They’re a bloody magical tool and every airplane should have them.
 
killbilly said:
Having been to ORD a couple of times now, and having gotten a full route clearance when #3 for takeoff followed by CPDLC crapping the bed, I’m doubling down on auto-sensing ECLs. They’re a bloody magical tool and every airplane should have them.
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I love when I’m doing KBED-KBOS-KTPA. Log in in Bed and get my BOS-TPA clearance before my BED-BOS….

Great. Then have to re-log in in BOS and it’s gone.

“F2TH Washington center, routing, advise when ready to copy…”. - “can you just send it CPDLC?” However is nice lol
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Give 10,000 monkeys an airplane, and eventually they’ll figure out the best way to fly it.

OEM checklists are a safe and thorough starting point- but often can be tweaked to mesh better with company SOP’s and actual line ops.

Ever been stuck behind a Netjets Bombardier crew that just started ? They used to spend 30min running checklists it seemed. Their lists had no flow to them, extraneous but meticulous checks. Go jump into a Dassault of Gulfstream product and the dark cockpit focus with flows goes much faster. Carrying ideology from one type to another can be hit or miss…. If 90% of your pilots will do something because that’s they way they have always done it- safely incorporating that into a checklist vs trying to relearn a large, stubborn Type A pilot pool may actually be the better answer.

All that non essential stuff…. Our OEM gives us guidance for custom checklist and procedure approval - within that scope our 91 poi is pretty happy.
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I’ve never met a GA OEM checklist that was anything other than hot steaming trash
 
Roger Roger said:
I’ve never met a GA OEM checklist that was anything other than hot steaming trash
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I suppose…

For us normal ops is pretty simple… some of the emergency stuff - if you’re not familiar with the symbology - can be tougher. ECL is simple. Yes/ no move on lol
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
I suppose…

For us normal ops is pretty simple… some of the emergency stuff - if you’re not familiar with the symbology - can be tougher. ECL is simple. Yes/ no move on lol
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I definitely haven’t flown every OEM. I suppose the PC12 and Lear QRHs were ok, don’t remember anything about the PC12 normal checklist, but the Lear normal checklists were trash. Supposed to run all the functional checks every leg? Forget that.
 
Roger Roger said:
Supposed to run all the functional checks every leg? Forget that.
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No. And then you put your pilots in the position of ignoring a procedure that has been blessed from On High for reasons of sheer impracticality and that's just not a good look either. And then inevitably when something(tm) happens the question is WELL WHY DIDN'T THEY FOLLOW THE APPROVED CHECKLIST ADEQUATE PROCEDURES DO EXIST TO PREVENT THIS (sure, Jan)

Because it sucked, duh.

Stuff that'll hurt you or cause equipment damage, legitimately, if you don't get it done, should be on a checklist.
 
Ian_J said:
The trim air goes on once before takeoff after the last power transfer and off during the after landing. So that’s one on, one off per flight. Too much?

The book says zone temp lights may have nuisance illuminations if the trim air is on during power transfers on 800s and above.
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Funnily, one Air Line on turned on the center fuel pumps only after the last power transfer for the same reason, but makes no mention at all about the trim air (though we also leave it on all the time unless putting the plane to bed).
 
///AMG said:
Oh cool. I know nothing about biz jets, but I had no idea you guys got the CPDLC easy train too, nice
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Yeah, they finally opened it up. There are a few bugs in the system still- biggest one for us is a short hop to a longer flight because our flight number doesn’t change- like SRQ-TPA-BOS trip- we are close enough in proximity to TPA that if we log on in SRQ they’ll send our clearance and tag us when airborne- so once we land in Tampa the flight terminates.

Knowing that now we won’t log in on the first… but growing pains lol
 
Roger Roger said:
The difference between a 121 checklist and the GA manufacturer checklists I used previously is refreshingly night and day in this regard.
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IMG_1828.jpeg

Depends on the OEM… ours seem to be pretty well sorted and efficient. Flow then check.

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All of these are normally in the ECL… but I can’t screen cap that. These are designed to roll through on an ECL with the appropriate pages auto loading on each line item.

Really pretty simple
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
View attachment 79860
Depends on the OEM… ours seem to be pretty well sorted and efficient. Flow then check.

View attachment 79861

All of these are normally in the ECL… but I can’t screen cap that. These are designed to roll through on an ECL with the appropriate pages auto loading on each line item.

Really pretty simple
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The DA-EASy has been the only corporate airplane that I have flown that doesn't have a completely garbage checklist and I'm pretty sure that was all driven by the change to the EASy flight deck and ECL. Our flight department customized the normal checklist to clean it up further, one of the nice things about a flight department set up by a bunch of furloughed airline pilots.

The Learjet 35, 45, and King Air 350i, junk just total rubbish. AirNet's normal Lear 35 checklist was pretty good though thinking back on it but the abnormal was the Bombardier one which was a bit wonky.
 
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