Checklist question (removed from other thread)

MikeD said:
Any general examples?
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Our "Runway Change" checklist is one. For example if we're taxiing out and ATC asks if we can take an intersection or change from the right to left side we have to run a pretty lengthy checklist. To the point where sometimes it's best to take the delay and just wait if that's an option. At 9E we had boxed items if we had a runway change and from my understanding that mimicked Delta's checklist structure.

Our briefing guide for non precision approaches has gotten better from what I've heard. Before it was a checklist from my understanding. I'd describe it as one of those things that people stop listening after 45seconds to a minute. After last year I don't see it going away anytime soon, they may even add some things to it.
 
phill1174 said:
Our "Runway Change" checklist is one. For example if we're taxiing out and ATC asks if we can take an intersection or change from the right to left side we have to run a pretty lengthy checklist. To the point where sometimes it's best to take the delay and just wait if that's an option. At 9E we had boxed items if we had a runway change and from my understanding that mimicked Delta's checklist structure.

Our briefing guide for non precision approaches has gotten better from what I've heard. Before it was a checklist from my understanding. I'd describe it as one of those things that people stop listening after 45seconds to a minute. After last year I don't see it going away anytime soon, they may even add some things to it.
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I get it that certain things need to be changed with respect to systems in the cockpit, etc, for a runway change, to include even new brief(s) for departure. But those should be simple enough and not made too complex.

On the non-precision side, 1354 certainly didn’t help with that. And neither did the Corporate Express Jetstream into IRK that did essentially the same thing. Non-precision approaches have become this unwarranted boogeyman, when there’s really nothing wrong with them…….IF, the crew flies them correctly. Things like not blowing through the MDA or descending before the VDP just because the runway environment appears. I personally don’t like treating a non-precision approach as a precision approach in terms of turning an MDA into a DA, but thats the accepted standard now. Even the term “dive and drive” is a misnomer, as it implies some kind of unsafe nose-over into the ground. 1000-1200 fpm descent rate is hardly that, its just merely getting to the MDA before the VDP at a normal descent rate. But, non-precision is a boogeyman because crews have failed to fly them correctly for any number of reasons.
 
MikeD said:
I get it that certain things need to be changed with respect to systems in the cockpit, etc, for a runway change, to include even new brief(s) for departure. But those should be simple enough and not made too complex.

On the non-precision side, 1354 certainly didn’t help with that. And neither did the Corporate Express Jetstream into IRK that did essentially the same thing. Non-precision approaches have become this unwarranted boogeyman, when there’s really nothing wrong with them…….IF, the crew flies them correctly. Things like not blowing through the MDA or descending before the VDP just because the runway environment appears. I personally don’t like treating a non-precision approach as a precision approach in terms of turning an MDA into a DA, but thats the accepted standard now. Even the term “dive and drive” is a misnomer, as it implies some kind of unsafe nose-over into the ground. 1000-1200 fpm descent rate is hardly that, its just merely getting to the MDA before the VDP at a normal descent rate. But, non-precision is a boogeyman because crews have failed to fly them correctly for any number of reasons.
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I mean, in 2007 I was trained dive and drive on a non precision in a CRJ2 that involved a VS -1400. That was SOP. Arguably that’s roughly double the rate of a normal ILS GS.


I’m a huge fan of the fixed angle/path approach for non-precision. It basically becomes like an ILS approach, in terms of how you fly it. And once at DA or MDA, you either see it and continue/land, or you punch out.

I remember many times at places like FWA and YQB VSing down at 1400fpm, altitude capture at MDA, and now trucking along 400-600 ft off the ground waiting and waiting.



You’re right in terms of crew screwups, but I still like the nearly constant angle, continuous smooth descent down to the MDA.

We can also use VS for certain approaches (you almost never would, so with LNAV/VNAV, but there are conditions that you would), but they involve using the VSD and putting yourself in the path line to the next fix and runway. No dive and drive.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I mean, in 2007 I was trained dive and drive on a non precision in a CRJ2 that involved a VS -1400. That was SOP. Arguably that’s roughly double the rate of a normal ILS GS.


I’m a huge fan of the fixed angle/path approach for non-precision. It basically becomes like an ILS approach, in terms of how you fly it. And once at DA or MDA, you either see it and continue/land, or you punch out.

I remember many times at places like FWA and YQB VSing down at 1400fpm, altitude capture at MDA, and now trucking along 400-600 ft off the ground waiting and waiting.



You’re right in terms of crew screwups, but I still like the nearly constant angle, continuous smooth descent down to the MDA.

We can also use VS for certain approaches (you almost never would, so with LNAV/VNAV, but there are conditions that you would), but they involve using the VSD and putting yourself in the path line to the next fix and runway. No dive and drive.
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1400 fpm is on the side of being the most I think there would be. 1000-1100 fpm gets the job done too. I personally like to get down to MDA at a reasonable time before the VDP (not “dive” to it literally), and see what I have to work with down there. Maybe something, maybe nothing. I don’t mind driving to the MAP to go missed.

Especially in helicopter, where I can be past the VDP (which is for airplanes) and prior to the MAP, and if I see the airfield, descend down and maneuver to land wherever I want and/or am cleared to: end of runway, taxiway, ramp, whatever. But that’s only because there’s no requirement to land in the TDZ like airplanes have: Still, I like having and using the MDA for what it is, and time to not rush; not necessarily making it a DA where I have a one second decision to make.
 
phill1174 said:
Our "Runway Change" checklist is one. For example if we're taxiing out and ATC asks if we can take an intersection or change from the right to left side we have to run a pretty lengthy checklist. To the point where sometimes it's best to take the delay and just wait if that's an option. At 9E we had boxed items if we had a runway change and from my understanding that mimicked Delta's checklist structure.

Our briefing guide for non precision approaches has gotten better from what I've heard. Before it was a checklist from my understanding. I'd describe it as one of those things that people stop listening after 45seconds to a minute. After last year I don't see it going away anytime soon, they may even add some things to it.
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I don’t operate out of LAX as much as I used to, but I used to chuckle when they’d ask us to have numbers for 25L and 25R. I tried to explain once why that likely wasn’t going to save anybody any time, but it just lead to more confusion.

It’s a good checklist to have, especially after we blew (or almost) the roof off a house in NRT, but it does take some time.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I was sitting in the United 737 jumpseat, those guys were touching the trim air switch on and off waaaaaay more than we ever do (which is basically never). Seemed like every generator transfer they had to turn trim air off then on. Eg, ground power to APU. APU to engine gens.

Double you tee eff?
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The trim air goes on once before takeoff after the last power transfer and off during the after landing. So that’s one on, one off per flight. Too much?

The book says zone temp lights may have nuisance illuminations if the trim air is on during power transfers on 800s and above.
 
phill1174 said:
Our "Runway Change" checklist is one. For example if we're taxiing out and ATC asks if we can take an intersection or change from the right to left side we have to run a pretty lengthy checklist. To the point where sometimes it's best to take the delay and just wait if that's an option. At 9E we had boxed items if we had a runway change and from my understanding that mimicked Delta's checklist structure.

Our briefing guide for non precision approaches has gotten better from what I've heard. Before it was a checklist from my understanding. I'd describe it as one of those things that people stop listening after 45seconds to a minute. After last year I don't see it going away anytime soon, they may even add some things to it.
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I remember when that runway change checklist procedure came out. It said it was preferable to stop the plane to run the checklist. So, I'm in the jumpseat at ORD and we get a runway change. Capt tells the F/O we need to stop. I guess at ORD you don't stop. Anything but stop. They gave us some crazy taxi clearance to get stopped and then after we were done they literally had us taxi around the airport before we could take off. Leave it to some dweeb in a cubical to come up with a procedure. That's also why you are to avoid speedbrakes below flaps 5 now. Argh...
 
Ian_J said:
The trim air goes on once before takeoff after the last power transfer and off during the after landing. So that’s one on, one off per flight. Too much?

The book says zone temp lights may have nuisance illuminations if the trim air is on during power transfers on 800s and above.
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Flew the -800 at AA for almost 1700 hours. NEVER once touched the Trim Air switch, unless directed by a non-normal.
 
DE727UPS said:
I remember when that runway change checklist procedure came out. It said it was preferable to stop the plane to run the checklist. So, I'm in the jumpseat at ORD and we get a runway change. Capt tells the F/O we need to stop. I guess at ORD you don't stop. Anything but stop. They gave us some crazy taxi clearance to get stopped and then after we were done they literally had us taxi around the airport before we could take off. Leave it to some dweeb in a cubical to come up with a procedure. That's also why you are to avoid speedbrakes below flaps 5 now. Argh...
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St. Butch's Three Cardinal Rules of Operating At O'Hare:
1. Don't cross an active runway.
2. Don't hit anything.
3. For God's sake, whatever you do, DON'T STOP!
 
SteveC said:
Curious - how much leeway do 121 carriers have to deviate from manufacturer’s checklists? I know when we customized checklists 135 we were basically told we could add to the manufacturer’s (and to some extent reorganize things a bit), but removal of anything would probably be denied.
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I think this largely depends on the POI because we definitely removed stuff from the checklists lol (though that might have been our POI just didn't notice).
 
I did a block turnback there once (didn't stop) cause the little red flag on the 757 SAI was hanging down. Figured we were going to the hotel but the damn mechanic fixed it. Argh....
 
Ian_J said:
The trim air goes on once before takeoff after the last power transfer and off during the after landing. So that’s one on, one off per flight. Too much?

The book says zone temp lights may have nuisance illuminations if the trim air is on during power transfers on 800s and above.
Click to expand...


This was a couple years ago. Seemed like more than once on the ground from gate to takeoff.

Oh well. We don’t mess with that switch. It just always stays on.
 
ERfly said:
St. Butch's Three Cardinal Rules of Operating At O'Hare:
1. Don't cross an active runway.
2. Don't hit anything.
3. For God's sake, whatever you do, DON'T STOP!
Click to expand...

I get to fly to ORD for the first time next month. Will remember this.
 
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