Challenger Truckee

This is a pretty small industry. I can think of a few examples in my short career where I could’ve burned a bridge, didn’t, and ended up working with said person later. While I’m sure an airline job feels super secure right now, a lot of folks at (insert name of failed airline) probably also felt that way.

Here’s where I’ll probably ruffle some feathers: at an airline your career’s a roll of the dice. If you get on at the right airline at the right time life is good. If you’re in your late 50s and your airline goes bankrupt not so much. It’s pretty nice knowing that I can easily make a lateral move and not lose money if needed. I sure don’t want to go back to what I earned my first year flying jets…
 
pwttogfk said:
This is a pretty small industry. I can think of a few examples in my short career where I could’ve burned a bridge, didn’t, and ended up working with said person later. While I’m sure an airline job feels super secure right now, a lot of folks at (insert name of failed airline) probably also felt that way.

Here’s where I’ll probably ruffle some feathers: at an airline your career’s a roll of the dice. If you get on at the right airline at the right time life is good. If you’re in your late 50s and your airline goes bankrupt not so much. It’s pretty nice knowing that I can easily make a lateral move and not lose money if needed. I sure don’t want to go back to what I earned my first year flying jets…
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Yeah I suppose that is one of the tradeoffs. From what I have heard, the unicorn jobs are amazing, if you can get in the door. I know of a couple folks who have managed to get there. Pretty on par with 121 CA pay, or better (or a lot better). QOL different, but not necessarily worse. But you are right. I look at my own employment in 121 is exactly what you say.....total crapshoot, and I won't know if it was the right decision for about another 20 years or so. Plenty of my friend's fathers lost their entire pensions a couple decades ago. I think it is really foolish to come into this industry and not be honest with yourself that it could absolutely happen again and happen to you. And then not have a plan in case it does.
 
pwttogfk said:
This is a pretty small industry. I can think of a few examples in my short career where I could’ve burned a bridge, didn’t, and ended up working with said person later. While I’m sure an airline job feels super secure right now, a lot of folks at (insert name of failed airline) probably also felt that way.

Here’s where I’ll probably ruffle some feathers: at an airline your career’s a roll of the dice. If you get on at the right airline at the right time life is good. If you’re in your late 50s and your airline goes bankrupt not so much. It’s pretty nice knowing that I can easily make a lateral move and not lose money if needed. I sure don’t want to go back to what I earned my first year flying jets…
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I mean, let’s get real. What’s more likely to last a long career? A typical big 6 legacy airline, or your typical corporate operation?

I remember reading a story in Rochester, I think Kodiak (?) where they had a corporate department for decades. Gone. Big automotive companies. Gone.

I would just imagine when the financial going gets tough, the corporate flight dept is among the first to see cuts.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I mean, let’s get real. What’s more likely to last a long career? A typical big 6 legacy airline, or your typical corporate operation?

I remember reading a story in Rochester, I think Kodiak (?) where they had a corporate department for decades. Gone. Big automotive companies. Gone.

I would just imagine when the financial going gets tough, the corporate flight dept is among the first to see cuts.
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True, but I think the difference is that your paycheck there isn't beholden to the seniority system that ours is. So experienced Gulfstream CA could probably walk on a new property and get paid an appropriate amount. I think if we are being real, being a professional pilot of any flavor is potentially fraught with uncertainty and risk. I'm not personally concerned about our shop, but you never really know. Having to go back to year 1 FO pay would be a stiff drink for anyone, especially those of you who have some seniority. But that is essentially the only option if your 121 goes TU and you only want a 121 job.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I mean, let’s get real. What’s more likely to last a long career? A typical big 6 legacy airline, or your typical corporate operation?

I remember reading a story in Rochester, I think Kodiak (?) where they had a corporate department for decades. Gone. Big automotive companies. Gone.

I would just imagine when the financial going gets tough, the corporate flight dept is among the first to see cuts.
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Laughs in Eastern, Braniff, Midway, Midwest Express, ATA, Expressjet, and Pan Am.
 
BobDDuck said:
Laughs in Eastern, Braniff, Midway, Midwest Express, ATA, Expressjet, and Pan Am.
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Yes yes, but now 4 airlines control like 85% of the country’s capacity. AA, DL, UA, SW. Spirit should soon be gone and be just jetBlue. 2 state airlines. And ULCC Frontier and Allegiant.


I think the days of multiple large airlines folding and going poof are (hopefully) done. Mergers, sure.
 
///AMG said:
True, but I think the difference is that your paycheck there isn't beholden to the seniority system that ours is. So experienced Gulfstream CA could probably walk on a new property and get paid an appropriate amount. I think if we are being real, being a professional pilot of any flavor is potentially fraught with uncertainty and risk. I'm not personally concerned about our shop, but you never really know. Having to go back to year 1 FO pay would be a stiff drink for anyone, especially those of you who have some seniority. But that is essentially the only option if your 121 goes TU and you only want a 121 job.
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This is exactly how that side of the industry works. Some of the larger fleet type operators do have a seniority based system, but for the most part the smaller departments are commensurate with experience and one’s negotiating power. It also might requiring moving from Dallas to Cleveland or wherever the new position is, but very few corporate pilots go back to year one pay at a new shop.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I mean, let’s get real. What’s more likely to last a long career? A typical big 6 legacy airline, or your typical corporate operation?

I remember reading a story in Rochester, I think Kodiak (?) where they had a corporate department for decades. Gone. Big automotive companies. Gone.

I would just imagine when the financial going gets tough, the corporate flight dept is among the first to see cuts.
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I'd just go to another operation making the same money as the last one. What the poster is saying is thhere is no starting over at the bottom of of a seniority. I'd go right into captain on the same equipment making the same pay. Even if the economy goes in the dumps and the industry takes a slump, I'd still likely be captain at whatever company I fall into.
 
///AMG said:
True, but I think the difference is that your paycheck there isn't beholden to the seniority system that ours is. So experienced Gulfstream CA could probably walk on a new property and get paid an appropriate amount. I think if we are being real, being a professional pilot of any flavor is potentially fraught with uncertainty and risk. I'm not personally concerned about our shop, but you never really know. Having to go back to year 1 FO pay would be a stiff drink for anyone, especially those of you who have some seniority. But that is essentially the only option if your 121 goes TU and you only want a 121 job.
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You are exactly right. The trickiest part of this the corporate side is moving up in equipment size because companies only hire Captains and the ones with experience on airframe typically take all the good gigs.
 
KLB said:
I'd just go to another operation making the same money as the last one. What the poster is saying is thhere is no starting over at the bottom of of a seniority. I'd go right into captain on the same equipment making the same pay. Even if the economy goes in the dumps and the industry takes a slump, I'd still likely be captain at whatever company I fall into.
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You can be at the bottom of a list and be a captain.
 
KLB said:
You can, but it really doesn't mean much because there really isn't a bid system. The schedule is tupically the schedule and the pay is the pay.
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Indeed. Anyway, apparently people qual’d and willing to be RJ captains is where the actual shortage is.

“Oh no! Anyway.”
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I’d rather fly rubber dog**** out of Hong Kong during Covid lockdowns with a 2 week quarantine each flight, than for a Corpie operation.
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And trust me that we would much rather you do that too! Keep doing your Commie flying and leave the corporate flying to those that aren’t scared to handle it.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Yes yes, but now 4 airlines control like 85% of the country’s capacity. AA, DL, UA, SW. Spirit should soon be gone and be just jetBlue. 2 state airlines. And ULCC Frontier and Allegiant.


I think the days of multiple large airlines folding and going poof are (hopefully) done. Mergers, sure.
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I think the only certain thing is the 5-10 year hire/furlough cycle. No idea what will cause the next one but nobody had “global pandemic” in the crystal ball for the last one. Can you get a bigger W-2 at the airlines? Absolutely. But after factoring in all the volatility and extra costs (I’ve never paid for parking, uniforms, commuting, crashpad, union dues, etc) I think the overall paycheck might not tip as far in favor of airlines as expected…especially considering how much of the big captain bucks probably goes to pay off debt and make catch-up retirement contributions. No idea how anyone survives flying on regional pay out of LAX/JFK/SFO/SEA crew bases.
 
pwttogfk said:
I think the only certain thing is the 5-10 year hire/furlough cycle. No idea what will cause the next one but nobody had “global pandemic” in the crystal ball for the last one. Can you get a bigger W-2 at the airlines? Absolutely. But after factoring in all the volatility and extra costs (I’ve never paid for parking, uniforms, commuting, crashpad, union dues, etc) I think the overall paycheck might not tip as far in favor of airlines as expected…especially considering how much of the big captain bucks probably goes to pay off debt and make catch-up retirement contributions. No idea how anyone survives flying on regional pay out of LAX/JFK/SFO/SEA crew bases.
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I really don't know where all this will end up as the dust settles. The old former airline pilots that now fly corporate argument is that I am missing out on the big retirement funds that the airline provides and that I have the experience on the corporate side to always come back if the airline industry runs into problems.

My counter is "first off. Why the hell are you still flying for a living after retirement?", corporate pay has gone up significantly due to the shortage, it is too many unknowns with sitting at the bottom of a list with so many late 20 year olds above me, and airline retirement goes back to negotiating table if the industry goes downward.

It's a lot to think about. I am getting tired of hearing. "Man you are young. You should go to the airlines" when I am perfectly fine doing the flyinh that I'm doing and haven't complained to anyone about it.
 
I've become accustomed to no commute, no overnights, liking the flying and the people I fly for. I need time off, I ask for time off, I get time off.

I think about the airlines now and again but if it means "paying dues" at some craptastic regional sitting short call in LGA then that's probably not in my future.
 
Roger Roger said:
I’m looking forward to RNP, seniority/years of service meaning something, getting paid more when the company •s with my schedule, having fuel and deice provided, not having to walk 1.5 miles at 4 AM to get to our hotel…..
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Yeah. That's your operator. I have a rental car and choose my own hotels. There are also some 3 pilot accounts where the schedule is constant. Maybe there may adjustments for vacations. But that's about it.
 
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