Challenger Truckee

[KLB]

There's also an expectations aspect that I'm just finally starting to pick up on having flown out of both sides of the airport now. 121 SOPs, manuals, policies, and company support system are designed so that if the •tiest Captain gets paired with the •tiest FO, nothing bad will happen. In 91 and 135, the expectation is that both are on their A game, due to the inherently more challenging and non-standard nature of operations. Bad things happen when this is not the case. When I show up as a 121 FO these days, I'm assumed to be professional and competent in my role unless I prove them otherwise (with the exception of the insecure or micromanagey Captains but you never win with those). On the corporate side I remember it being the opposite: I was watched heavily until they were satisfied I was up to standard.

Crew pairing consideration was important, and if one seat was weaker you had to make sure their flying partner was solid. Things get difficult in contract flying because some times in the desire to cover a last minute trip or "just get the plane moved" this check and balance gets missed. Or in this particular case where the FO was hired to mentor the Captain, having more experience in the plane but having to tread the line of being an outsider to the department and still work within the SIC role for that day. Things get complicated quickly since there's no formal IOE in many cases and different operators approach this task differently. Ultimately everyone in every seat needs to be a bit of a chameleon.

Those a very good points. I really only ever use contractors that I've previously flown 135 with or that I know to be vetted by people that I know. I really never use contractors that I am unfamiliar with.

There is also the external pressure of "this department will never use me again if I step on this guy's toes and he tells them that I'm the type that tries to play PIC from the right seat."

 

[🦈💜]

You guys in the corporate world should understand that from an airline point of view, this all sounds pretty awful.

It doesn't even sound fun.

 

[KLB]

You guys in the corporate world should understand that from an airline point of view, this all sounds pretty awful.

It doesn't even sound fun.

It really isn't any huge differences honestly. I've flown training events with people from different operators with slightly different checklists and the instructors could have sworn that we have been flying together for years because of how seemless the events went.

The aircraft manufacturers give these training centers pretty solid procedures on how to operate the planes. These centers disseminate that exact info to their clients. We train with that same exact info. The clients then choose how to use that info on their planes.

This accident is due to the exceeding and disregarding many of the things taught in the training center. A circling approach is included in every training event that I've ever done part 135 and part 91. I will say that the manuever isn't performed often. But that's even more reason to review the procedure which is in Bombadier's manual along with the information their company's GOM before performing the maneuver. It is not something you just do off the cuff if you aren't familiar. Something that I can say is lacking with the nature of the flying on this side of the industry, is a GOOD briefing.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

It really isn't any huge differences honestly. I've flown training events with people from different operators with slightly different checklists and the instructors could have sworn that we have been flying together for years because of how seemless the events went.

Doesn’t a lot of this have to do with doing the exact same profile every 6-12 months? Sure, after you’ve done the cookie cutter training event, it will go smoothly. Part 91 flying rarely goes that smoothly in reality. Also, I suspect you’re quite a bit ahead of the curve relative to the average 91 guy.

 

[KLB]

Doesn’t a lot of this have to do with doing the exact same profile every 6-12 months? Sure, after you’ve done the cookie cutter training event, it will go smoothly. Part 91 flying rarely goes that smoothly in reality. Also, I suspect you’re quite a bit ahead of the curve relative to the average 91 guy.

True. Circles are dynamic. For instance a circle off of an A or B approach can be interesting....especially if the crew hasn't briefed a VDP, the different ways to get into the pattern for landing, or missed approach due to loss of ground contact while in the circle. But it is impossible to go over every factor that could happen on the line during a training event. I believe that the act of briefing the procedure and refresher on factors that need to be taken into consideration is the true relevance of why it is done in training events.

This crew would have even screwed the training approach up. They were circling the wrong category, didn't use the maximum amount of circling distance, and was way above the manufacturer's recommended circling speed. All of these things could have been covered in the briefing.

 

[MikeD]

True. Circles are dynamic. For instance a circle off of an A or B approach can be interesting....especially if the crew hasn't briefed a VDP, the different ways to get into the pattern for landing, or missed approach due to loss of ground contact while in the circle. But it is impossible to go over every factor that could happen on the line during a training event. I believe that the act of briefing the procedure and refresher on factors that need to be taken into consideration is the true relevance of why it is done in training events.

This crew would have even screwed the training approach up. They were circling the wrong category, didn't use the maximum amount of circling distance, and was way above the manufacturer's recommended circling speed. All of these things could have been covered in the briefing.

Circles really are not that difficult, they just take some planning prior to execution, as no two circle maneuvers are really the same. Circles have just gotten this unfounded boogeyman aura to them because they are a little complex and require some actual airmanship combined with training/currency to not just accomplish, but to be comfortable performing; especially as it comes to being able to eyeball where the aircraft is and where it needs to be, at any given moment. Circle Cat E, as I mentioned before, things are happening fast that require good SA, but its not an impossible or unsafe maneuver, in any fixed wing, 172 to F-117…IF…planned and flown correctly; the two biggest gotchas I see being too tight to the airport and misjudging when to descend from the low pattern maneuvering altitude, just like you mentioned.

 

[SteveC]

We would do CTL practice and checks in the sim every time. We also got plenty of exposure going into Chicago Executive, which does not have any approaches from the south due to the proximity to O'Hare. ILS (or RNAV/LPV) to runway 16, circle to 34, was not unusual at all.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Nope that's me and I'm about to blow your mind.

I am the Training Manager for my company of 8 pilots (7 PIC and 1 SIC) and 3 mechanics. I am the Standards Captain on the Lear 45. I am PIC qualified, but not let go as non restricted PIC in the Gulfstream 280. Flying pilot always sits in the left seat, regardless of assigned position. So I may fly from the left seat in the 280 as SIC on Monday and then hop in the Lear Tuesday with the same pilot that I flew with on Monday a give a standards check in the Lear. There is never a question about who will be running the show in the case of an emergency. Anything not an emergency is coordinated as a crew.

This works because we are all on the same page with it. We know each other and know the other pilot is competent and will make good decisions. Every 6 months, we train together and fly both left seat and right seat in the sim. And just like in the plane, left seat flies and right seat runs checklists.

Now this obviously all gets murky with situations like the accident this thread is discussing. I would argue that professional contract pilots are a lot like FOs at the airlines. You have to be somewhat of a chameleon. And that's possible because as mentioned upthread, the training facilities all use manufacturer provided material. Different operators may change things like what lights are turned on when or what call outs happen when, but overall, things stay pretty damn consistent. It still appears to me as if the PNF was trying his best to mentor the PF. Unfortunately, he let it go too far before either stepping in or saying go around. Why this happened is a great question and I would venture it has to do with the fact that he was contracted to be SIC on this flight and he was filling that role.

I don't get the concept of contract flying. You could have a Boeing factory-trained 737 pilot, but if he sits right seat to me, he's gonna be lost with our procedures and callouts.

I won't even get into flying two types at once. That's a strict no-no in the 121 world.


It's not just this accident. CTL is just one example. But there are countless other examples, some just downright egregious like the G4 at BED. Or the Falcon run off where they guy wasn't even typed. Or the racecar family jet where at 500 they're way unstable but still gonna send it.


That also reminds me, the Lear crash at TEB. The FO was so bad, he was given a "no fly" rating score of 1 (or whatever that scale was). Meaning, he wasn't to fly any legs. I'm sorry that doesn't compute. Never mind the fact that TEB should be well known to any Corpie and the CA made numerous comments about being hundreds of miles away (from Philly?!) and not getting cleared higher into the Flight Levels.

CTL recent accidents are this Learjet at TEB, the Gulfstream mentioned in this thread, and the Lear in San Diego / Gillespie. That's 3 separate crews with 3 separate procedures/callouts, but all with the same end result.





Curious, of the 8 pilots, why do you have only 1 that isn't labeled PIC?

 

[KLB]

I don't get the concept of contract flying. You could have a Boeing factory-trained 737 pilot, but if he sits right seat to me, he's gonna be lost with our procedures and callouts.

I won't even get into flying two types at once. That's a strict no-no in the 121 world.


It's not just this accident. CTL is just one example. But there are countless other examples, some just downright egregious like the G4 at BED. Or the Falcon run off where they guy wasn't even typed. Or the racecar family jet where at 500 they're way unstable but still gonna send it.


That also reminds me, the Lear crash at TEB. The FO was so bad, he was given a "no fly" rating score of 1 (or whatever that scale was). Meaning, he wasn't to fly any legs. I'm sorry that doesn't compute. Never mind the fact that TEB should be well known to any Corpie and the CA made numerous comments about being hundreds of miles away (from Philly?!) and not getting cleared higher into the Flight Levels.





Curious, of the 8 pilots, why do you have only 1 that isn't labeled PIC?

There are BBJ contract pilots. They exist.

 

[MikeD]

I don't get the concept of contract flying. You could have a Boeing factory-trained 737 pilot, but if he sits right seat to me, he's gonna be lost with our procedures and callouts.

Not necessarily. Sure, the factory trained pilots all speak the same language, to put it mildly. It’s the individual 121 operators who customize the baseline Boeing procedures and make them their own. Like at my place, I’m factory 737 trained, yet I have AS and SWA early retirees here (who figured out they retired too early) who know and do things that they grew up in their “tribe” doing for many years. Even going through our training, it’s a challenge to change long-established habits. So as they are learning, I generally flex with what they are used to, and the job gets done. Though it is kind of funny seeing who is used to doing what in things like cockpit setup and general ops. For example, over Kansas and get cleared direct down line fix. Them: “aren’t you going to select abeam points?” Me: “nope. Not navigating to them, don’t need them jamming up the legs page.” Hilarity ensues watching heads explode….

 

[CFI A&P]

You guys in the corporate world should understand that from an airline point of view, this all sounds pretty awful.

It doesn't even sound fun.

There are people spending their entire careers as contractors, and it works with solid relationships and expectations. The operators without such ground rules at usually make headlines or training scenarios at the school houses. One of my mentors is a full time contractor, has been for 20 years and their bread and butter are the same four accounts. It takes some juggling to make it work but all the owners are on the same page with safety and he has no problem with saying no, and neither do they.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Not necessarily. Sure, the factory trained pilots all speak the same language, to put it mildly. It’s the individual 121 operators who customize the baseline Boeing procedures and make them their own. Like at my place, I’m factory 737 trained, yet I have AS and SWA early retirees here (who figured out they retired too early) who know and do things that they grew up in their “tribe” doing for many years. Even going through our training, it’s a challenge to change long-established habits. So as they are learning, I generally flex with what they are used to, and the job gets done. Though it is kind of funny seeing who is used to doing what in things like cockpit setup and general ops. For example, over Kansas and get cleared direct down line fix. Them: “aren’t you going to select abeam points?” Me: “nope. Not navigating to them, don’t need them jamming up the legs page.” Hilarity ensues watching heads explode….

Classics can do abeam points?!

Our 700s and 800s cannot.

Then I gotta go to the fix page, put original fix, abeam, and drop it on legs page. We do abeams for fuel check points, and because creating a direct to a large distance just throws the FOA value out of whack. The winds page only looks at that next fix 700 miles away with no other data in between.



You’ll call flaps 2 here and throw me out of whack. Joke aside, if I come to your shop I’d be trained by your shop specifically. Right? That’s unlike a contract pilots who just show up to move a plane.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

There are BBJ contract pilots. They exist.

What’s to stop me calling myself a BBJ contract pilot? I’m typed and current right? Other then the nugget at my shop for no other professional flying for my services, why can’t I just show up at your organization and fly a BBJ on a one time basis for a re-po leg?

 

[KLB]

What’s to stop me calling myself a BBJ contract pilot? I’m typed and current right? Other then the nugget at my shop for no other professional flying for my services, why can’t I just show up at your organization and fly a BBJ on a one time basis for a re-po leg?

Nothing is stopping you other than your airline not wanting you to do any outside flying for hire.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Nothing is stopping you other than your airline not wanting you to do any outside flying for hire.

Meh. I hear guys doing contract work on the side. Like a one off gig. Part 91 repo? Don’t know. But it’s out there.

 

[CFI A&P]

Meh. I hear guys doing contract work on the side. Like a one off gig. Part 91 repo? Don’t know. But it’s out there.

It is out there, just have to get the chain of command approval. Same for exhibition pilots that happen to be employed at 121 operators. All you have to do is ask.

 

[BobDDuck]

What’s to stop me calling myself a BBJ contract pilot? I’m typed and current right? Other then the nugget at my shop for no other professional flying for my services, why can’t I just show up at your organization and fly a BBJ on a one time basis for a re-po leg?

I did a bit of contract flying in a corporate CRJ 700. It was during super slow periods (while on reserve) and the CP was ok with me burning up 30 hours a month at another gig. The operation used straight OEM procedures which was pretty close to how I flew it at my day job. Hardest part was remembering where all the switches were from the right seat on legs I wasn't PIC (we always did PIC/PF from the left seat).

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Meh. I hear guys doing contract work on the side. Like a one off gig. Part 91 repo? Don’t know. But it’s out there.

The hard part is having the skill set and personality to get called for corporate work.

Got a tour once of a BBJ and it had ALOT of equipment that I imagine would either require a flexible/can do attitude or lots of training.

Bus drivin’ be bus drivin’ after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[KLB]

The hard part is having the skill set and personality to get called for corporate work.

Got a tour once of a BBJ and it had ALOT of equipment that I imagine would either require a flexible/can do attitude or lots of training.

Bus drivin’ be bus drivin’ after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know some guys that flew a BBJ went cabin attendants. That has to be a bear to clean up and put to bad after a long haul international trip...or after any flight to that point.

 

[CFI A&P]

I know some guys that flew a BBJ went cabin attendants. That has to be a bear to clean up and put to bad after a long haul international trip...or after any flight to that point.

You're probably already familiar, but for those that don't already know the pilots flying long range large cabin (BBJ, Falcon, Gulfstream 650, Global 7500) as contractors are fetching $3k a day or more. Entirely driven by supply/ demand and schoolhouse availability for contractors that are 61.58 current. For them it doesn't matter if it is a ten minute repo from LAX to VNY, or TEB to DXB - they don't leave the house without getting paid, which is why contract is so lucrative.