Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
They tried. They lost.
Challenger Truckee
- Thread starter Boris Badenov
- Start date
They tried. They lost.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
When you’re sitting in a chair and making posts, this is an easy comment to make. In the real flying world, it’s not this simple.
Every once in a while, you may be faced with a CTL or give up and crash. Diversions are not always possible and the “Lazy Susan” runway system for favorable winds never fully developed. BTW there are CTL criteria for RNP approaches too, you know!
KLB
Well-Known Member
Been the right seat pilot on a flight where I was PIC assigned. It's the same as if you are the NFP and have an engine failure in takeoff. It works the same way. The duties are the same no matter where you.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
In a CAT D approach speed jet, RNPs are just safer - IMO. We big 121 airline guys just don't do real CTL. Limited to VMC anyway, but regardless - we just don't do them. Like @MikeD said, if you practice them regularly, they are fine (probably lol). But nearly all domestic 121 737/320 guys? We just don't do them, consequently, I don't consider us to be at that level of proficient from a safety aspect.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
No, I'm listening. And I do not understand this concept. 121 PIC being right seater is usually almost always a checkairman doing training kinda thing. Regular line ops? It doesn't happen in the 121 world.
I'm aware, there are corporate operators out there where they switch seats, left and right, and also designated PIC - who could be left or right seat.
KLB
Well-Known Member
What different things do you do as 121 PIC from the left seat as NFP that you wouldn't do from the right seat as the NFP in an emergency situation?
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
KLB
Well-Known Member
You haven't done it in 5 years. I do it on a regular and on checkrides all the time. My training sessions are almost 2hrs left seat and 2hrs right seat. It really isn't foreign on the corporate side. I'm ambidextrous when it comes to what seat I sit in. I can perform FP and NFP duties from either seat just as you.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
KLB
Well-Known Member
Not anymore. I'm just a regular old line pilot. Just about all corporate pilots train in both seats.
You want to know something interesting? I may do all of my training and checkride with a pilot from a completely different outfit from mine. It happens all the time.
If you're listening, you're surely not hearing.
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
Of course not. He's just an arrogant butt that wants to hear himself talk instead of listen to other people.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Talk about a square corner being placed into, with no go around ability or at least a very risky one due to cross landing traffic.
Sucks because (and this is common with these) wrapping up around the turn requires us to jam on the power so we don’t initiate, and get caught in, the insidious descent rate into the ground; yet at the same time that jam-on of power and resultant acceleration is also widening our turn radius and reducing our turn rate, when we’re trying to get the jet around that base-final corner. Sucky situation all around.
Yeah, that was a real lesson in not letting ATC put baby in a corner. My skipper was the first down, in front of me. He laughed and tried to pretend it was NBD (he had a similar experience), but I know he pooped himself a little too. Pattern stuff was what it was, but what really spooked me was the standing water wet runway. That **** is no joke in any FA-18. He flies donkeys around now for Fedex, and is a great dude. He probably didn't say anything though because he knew I'd do the proper (book) thing and request a field trap, and then shut the whole field down. Which is correct, and probably wouldn't have been great for the rest of our friends.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
That's true. A straight in ILS is probably even safer than that... But we don't always get to pick our approaches, especially OCONUS when there are most likely language barriers. I just shot a barely vmc "visual" from a downwind that dumped me on a 3 mile final in a 400k jet (stop laughing @Screaming_Emu) in mountainous terrain. The RNAV was available by request, for operation requirements but not operational preference, so since we didn't want to write a full letter to JCAB we jammed the visual.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
I never wrote that RNPs weren’t safe than CTLs, I wrote that in the corporate world they aren’t always an option. Corporate flying is much more challenging than that of you “Commies”. We don’t have the cushion of flying to the same canned approaches to the same canned airports day after day. It’s easy to sit back and throw darts.
Don’t misunderstand me, this crash was a disaster! The very second the guy on the radio said “Seeeee Ya!”, you knew there was a breakdown in professionalism. After this report, I’m shaking my head with the antics of both pilots and trying to imagine how it got so far off. My guess is that the enroute flying was just as antagonistic. This was a terrible crew mix with very little respect for each other.
I fly with pilots (SICs) that had very little or NO jet experience but I still valued their input as PILOTS. If one of them expresses concern about ANY element of an approach, I would break it off and hold until we were on the same page.
SrFnFly227
Well-Known Member
Nope that's me and I'm about to blow your mind.
I am the Training Manager for my company of 8 pilots (7 PIC and 1 SIC) and 3 mechanics. I am the Standards Captain on the Lear 45. I am PIC qualified, but not let go as non restricted PIC in the Gulfstream 280. Flying pilot always sits in the left seat, regardless of assigned position. So I may fly from the left seat in the 280 as SIC on Monday and then hop in the Lear Tuesday with the same pilot that I flew with on Monday a give a standards check in the Lear. There is never a question about who will be running the show in the case of an emergency. Anything not an emergency is coordinated as a crew.
This works because we are all on the same page with it. We know each other and know the other pilot is competent and will make good decisions. Every 6 months, we train together and fly both left seat and right seat in the sim. And just like in the plane, left seat flies and right seat runs checklists.
Now this obviously all gets murky with situations like the accident this thread is discussing. I would argue that professional contract pilots are a lot like FOs at the airlines. You have to be somewhat of a chameleon. And that's possible because as mentioned upthread, the training facilities all use manufacturer provided material. Different operators may change things like what lights are turned on when or what call outs happen when, but overall, things stay pretty damn consistent. It still appears to me as if the PNF was trying his best to mentor the PF. Unfortunately, he let it go too far before either stepping in or saying go around. Why this happened is a great question and I would venture it has to do with the fact that he was contracted to be SIC on this flight and he was filling that role.
There's also an expectations aspect that I'm just finally starting to pick up on having flown out of both sides of the airport now. 121 SOPs, manuals, policies, and company support system are designed so that if the •tiest Captain gets paired with the •tiest FO, nothing bad will happen. In 91 and 135, the expectation is that both are on their A game, due to the inherently more challenging and non-standard nature of operations. Bad things happen when this is not the case. When I show up as a 121 FO these days, I'm assumed to be professional and competent in my role unless I prove them otherwise (with the exception of the insecure or micromanagey Captains but you never win with those). On the corporate side I remember it being the opposite: I was watched heavily until they were satisfied I was up to standard.
Crew pairing consideration was important, and if one seat was weaker you had to make sure their flying partner was solid. Things get difficult in contract flying because some times in the desire to cover a last minute trip or "just get the plane moved" this check and balance gets missed. Or in this particular case where the FO was hired to mentor the Captain, having more experience in the plane but having to tread the line of being an outsider to the department and still work within the SIC role for that day. Things get complicated quickly since there's no formal IOE in many cases and different operators approach this task differently. Ultimately everyone in every seat needs to be a bit of a chameleon.
Crew pairing consideration was important, and if one seat was weaker you had to make sure their flying partner was solid. Things get difficult in contract flying because some times in the desire to cover a last minute trip or "just get the plane moved" this check and balance gets missed. Or in this particular case where the FO was hired to mentor the Captain, having more experience in the plane but having to tread the line of being an outsider to the department and still work within the SIC role for that day. Things get complicated quickly since there's no formal IOE in many cases and different operators approach this task differently. Ultimately everyone in every seat needs to be a bit of a chameleon.