Challenger Truckee

SteveC said:
Reading the report, the voice in the back of my head is screaming at Bret to quit trying to help and just get out of there, regroup, and start over but do it right this time. Instead, he's trying to talk the PF through continuing a maneuver that they were never ready for, and they end up so far into the Swiss cheese it's unbelievable.
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Yeah. That was him though.

You know how people say that as an FO you should learn something from every captain you fly with, whether it is things you will do or things you'll never do? With him it was pretty evenly split. I spent a lot of time (even in my first year on property) with him saying "no... that's stupid... let's not do that", not because it was necessarily unsafe but because if any of the circumstances changed it could rapidly become unsafe.
 
BobDDuck said:
Yeah. That was him though.

You know how people say that as an FO you should learn something from every captain you fly with, whether it is things you will do or things you'll never do? With him it was pretty evenly split. I spent a lot of time (even in my first year on property) with him saying "no... that's stupid... let's not do that", not because it was necessarily unsafe but because if any of the circumstances changed it could rapidly become unsafe.
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I’m a little confused. The younger guy was the CA, left seat, and the older guy was the FO, right seat, who was doing the verbal flying along? And you flew with the older guy prior?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Appreciate that, still, stuff like callouts and operational limits. One thing I hate at my shop, is on an instrument approach the PM only says “approaching minimums” and “minimums”

It’s the PF at minimums that says:

“approach lights in sight, continuing;
runway, landing;
going around.”


My last 2 airplanes, the PM would say “approach lights in sight, or runway, or no contact” and the PF would respond respectively, “continuing, landing, going around.”

I would imagine most 121 airlines do the latter. Not the former.

Then there’s stuff like no flaps 2 at my shop, but at other places it’s common/allowed.


Sure there is manufacture stuff, but some airlines go beyond that. I have no doubt I’d confuse the heck out of a big 3 FO on the 737 with my procedures.
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Operational limitations as in GOM? They are all mostly the same if it's FAA approved. All those GOM's and FOM's jave the same stuff in them because they are mostly made up by the same company.

Even the callouts are very similar. I've only noticed slight differences. One company I worked for used "above minimums" while another used "above touchdown" on IFR approach callouts.

The procedural differences are usually so small that it can be briefed before the flight. Generally all the folks that I've flown with from various operators generally operate it the same. Maybe they shut the APU down at 3000ft vs 10,000ft. But none of these preferences will generally cause any harm.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
This is the whole Corpie thing (again, not all operators).


But far too often in that world, they are both PICs and alternate legs as such.

Um. What?


To quote John Travolta from Broken Arrow:


“One thing you don’t do, is share command. It’s never. a Good. Idea.”
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Untrue. At least as far as I've ever seen. The guy who signs the logbook is the PIC. Now, it is true that pilots often change seats in corporate/charter, depending upon who is flying the airplane, and I personally don't think that's a uh "best practice" for the reasons you allude to. That said, there's only ever one PIC, and upon his dumb head goes the brown helmet when/if things go pear-shaped.

Ask me about the time some snot-nosed kid told me it was "(his) *turn* to be PIC". We had an emotionally significant Conversation.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Untrue. At least as far as I've ever seen. The guy who signs the logbook is the PIC. Now, it is true that pilots often change seats in corporate/charter, depending upon who is flying the airplane, and I personally don't think that's a uh "best practice" for the reasons you allude to. That said, there's only ever one PIC, and upon his dumb head goes the brown helmet when/if things go pear-shaped.

Ask me about the time some snot-nosed kid told me it was "(his) *turn* to be PIC". We had an emotionally significant Conversation.
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Next thing you know, they’ll be walking on your lawn.
 
We have a couple captains who allowed certain FOs to develop an expectation that they “get” to fly from the left seat on their legs. I THINK it came from the guys who flew 35s where the AP only couples to the CA side instruments, so you basically had to fly from over there. I’m not about that. It’s my seat, I don’t like moving my stuff, and I’m probably tired and grouchy. If (because our staffing is an absolute •show right now) I am paired with another captain I will (grudgingly) seat swap.
 
Roger Roger said:
We have a couple captains who allowed certain FOs to develop an expectation that they “get” to fly from the left seat on their legs. I THINK it came from the guys who flew 35s where the AP only couples to the CA side instruments, so you basically had to fly from over there. I’m not about that. It’s my seat, I don’t like moving my stuff, and I’m probably tired and grouchy. If (because our staffing is an absolute •show right now) I am paired with another captain I will (grudgingly) seat swap.
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If you’re gonna swap, do it by day and not leg.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Not if Mr. AR-15 has anything to say about it!
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Boris Badenov said:
Untrue. At least as far as I've ever seen. The guy who signs the logbook is the PIC. Now, it is true that pilots often change seats in corporate/charter, depending upon who is flying the airplane, and I personally don't think that's a uh "best practice" for the reasons you allude to. That said, there's only ever one PIC, and upon his dumb head goes the brown helmet when/if things go pear-shaped.

Ask me about the time some snot-nosed kid told me it was "(his) *turn* to be PIC". We had an emotionally significant Conversation.
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I get what you are saying.


But I’ll say this too: When real poop (s-word) hits the fan, I think you could easily see two CAs come out. Even though there was only one who signed the book.


Whereas at 121, there is only one CA and only one FO, paired, always. The FO has always been FO on that plane, and not acting as a PIC, nor switched seats.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Corpie world?





Joke aside, I don’t get this whole contractor thing. If I just showed up today as a CA into a 737 at DL, UA, or AA, and started doing my shop procedures, those FOs would be confused as heck. It wouldn’t make for a good or even safe environment. I am used to my procedures for the 737, they are used to theirs. Not sure how the corporate world pulls this off.
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Because CAE and FSI essentially have the same procedures/flows. The manufacture of the airframe publishes them and the training facilities puts their stamp on them and changes the cover.

You're literally comparing apples to volley balls.

Also, drop the *corpie* thing. It's getting old and it's never been funny.
 
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