Challenger Truckee

Space Monkey said:
Copy.

But like I said, ATC made me cancel before receiving my contact clearance. ??? IDK??
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got me, no point clearing you for an approach after you cancel IFR.

Contact Approach
  1. Pilot.
    1. Must request a contact approach and makes it in lieu of a standard or special instrument approach.
    2. By requesting the contact approach, indicates that the flight is operating clear of clouds, has at least one mile flight visibility, and reasonably expects to continue to the destination airport in those conditions.
    3. Assumes responsibility for obstruction clearance while conducting a contact approach.
    4. Advises ATC immediately if unable to continue the contact approach or if encounters less than 1 mile flight visibility.
    5. Is aware that if radar service is being received, it may be automatically terminated when told to contact the tower.
      REFERENCE-
      P/CG Term - RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED.
  2. Controller.
    1. Issues clearance for a contact approach only when requested by the pilot. Does not solicit the use of this procedure.
    2. Before issuing the clearance, ascertains that reported ground visibility at destination airport is at least 1 mile.
    3. Provides approved separation between the aircraft cleared for a contact approach and other IFR or special VFR aircraft. When using vertical separation, does not assign a fixed altitude, but clears the aircraft at or below an altitude which is at least 1,000 feet below any IFR traffic but not below Minimum Safe Altitudes prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.119.
    4. Issues alternative instructions if, in their judgment, weather conditions may make completion of the approach impracticable
 
NovemberEcho said:
got me, no point clearing you for an approach after you cancel IFR.
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Without meaning any attempt a defending an untenable position, it is still worthwhile noting that there ARE clearances you can get under IFR. Most famous is "cleared through class Bravo." So, there's at least precedence for clearances outside of IFR operations.

fholbert said:
Sounds like they knew you?
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Prolly. Still, this is far, far, far removed from what we were talking about in relation to, er, events at Truckee, yeah?
 
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NovemberEcho said:
Why? Not my ass in the plane. You have as much right to kill yourself as you want. I only step in when you don’t want to kill yourself.
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For the controller: If the pilots looses contact with the ground he’s supposed to immediately tell ATC. Now what do you do? The yo-yo is 1,500 feet below the MVA in IMC heading for a ***. Nothing in the .65 covers your butt if you issue a vector to the yo-yo Into the ground other than maybe an emergency.

For the pilot: Your on Unicom going into an uncontrolled airport when you suddenly go IMC. Back on the gauges you know you’re really low so you start climbing in IMC. You call ATC, he’s on the landline not answering (ATC may not answer until you reach the MVA ) You know your heading for a mountain. What do you do to ensure you see the sun come up tomorrow?
 
For the record, I am typed in and flew both the 601 and the 605. I have been off the plane since Jan 2020, but was always taught Cat C for straight in and Cat D for circle. The circle is performed flaps 30 in both planes. In the 601, CAE taught a set speed (150 I believe). In the 605, FSI taught Ref + something (would have been mid to upper 140s at the slowest).
 
fholbert said:
Now what do you do? The yo-yo is 1,500 feet below the MVA in IMC heading for a ***.
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Pull up my emergency map, give a vector if needed and climb to MVA. Traffic shouldn’t be an issue because they were told to maintain at or below an altitude so no other aircraft should be in conflict.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Pull up my emergency map, give a vector if needed and climb to MVA. Traffic shouldn’t be an issue because they were told to maintain at or below an altitude so no other aircraft should be in conflict.
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I think that works better in the flat lands than most of SoCal approach.
 
CFI A&P said:
Example 1 for the court:
Chicago approach will not allow you to fly a visual approach to RW34 at PWK until you cancel IFR. Someone way smarter than me can explain the why in detail.
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Trying to remember, flew in there a few times IFR in a jet and ASEL. Honestly can't remember anything like what you describe.
Wx sucks - ils 16 circle 34. Decent - cleared visual 34. Maybe things have changed
 
CFI A&P said:
Example 1 for the court:
Chicago approach will not allow you to fly a visual approach to RW34 at PWK until you cancel IFR. Someone way smarter than me can explain the why in detail.
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because if you’re IFR you’ll interfere with ORD traffic depending on their flow and they ain’t stopping ORD for ya. Same reason going into KLDJ if you can’t cancel by the MAP execute missed approach and expect holding until there’s a big gap in EWR arrivals when landing 4’s.
 
fholbert said:
Like NE said, a visual approach is an instrument approach. Clearing an aircraft for an instrument approach after they cancel IFR doesn’t work.
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ShortField said:
I don’t get it. A visual is still on an IFR clearance, ya? Am I getting lost in semantics here?
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Hey, I’m just a meat servo that does what I’m told and all I know is that every time I fly to Chicago Executive on an IFR flight plan, I will not get a landing clearance for runway 34 until I cancel IFR.
 
fholbert said:
Like NE said, a visual approach is an instrument approach. Clearing an aircraft for an instrument approach after they cancel IFR doesn’t work.
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Actually you have to come in on one of the 16 approaches (no approaches from the south - KORD is..right..there), then cancel IFR before maneuvering visually for 34. My presumption is because IFR separation standards won’t work with the O’Hare traffic, depending on what runway configuration is in place.

We’re in there a lot.
 
NovemberEcho said:
because if you’re IFR you’ll interfere with ORD traffic depending on their flow and they ain’t stopping ORD for ya.
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If you are cleared visual, do you still get IFR separation?
ORD increases separation when in the evening sun gets to a perfect point where non-locals can't pick out the airport in haze and need an ILS instead of a visual
 
NovemberEcho said:
because if you’re IFR you’ll interfere with ORD traffic depending on their flow and they ain’t stopping ORD for ya. Same reason going into KLDJ if you can’t cancel by the MAP execute missed approach and expect holding until there’s a big gap in EWR arrivals when landing 4’s.
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Beat me by a minute.

I’ve never seen it happen, but my presumption is if you can’t cancel nor land on 16 the next move will be flying the missed.
 
BigZ said:
If you are cleared visual, do you still get IFR separation?
ORD increases separation when in the evening sun gets to a perfect point where non-locals can't pick out the airport in haze and need an ILS instead of a visual
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of course. You’re still IFR. UNLESS you say you have preceding traffic in sight, and are told to follow that traffic. Then sep is up to you.
 
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