Challenger crashed onto highway in Naples FL

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Bottom line is, at a non-union carrier, you don’t have jack for protections.
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
<in other threads rants about liberals>
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Me:

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form810 said:
Good points. (Not for me, but I take your points about emotionally traumatized neo-post monkeys who didn't realize that the cell channels were probably already clogged with the surfeit of interstate drivers who were already on the line with 911.)
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I was in a nearly head on crash with a drunk driver about 20 years ago. I took a decent knock to my head but was otherwise fine considering the destruction. Still, in the shock of it all, I decided I needed to crawl out my passenger side window. When I got to the wreckage of my Jeep a couple days later, I realized that both doors were working fine.

So that’s to say I agree on the point about the irrational things we do when in shock.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I drive a lot and make a few 911 calls a year. Expecting to be among an avalanche of calls, I’m occasionally surprised that I’m the first caller. Some folks just assume somebody has already called.

Even when I haven’t been the first caller, I’ve been the first caller with critical details. Think about a driver that has witnessed an accident or aftermath and it takes them a minute to call while continuing to drive at highway speeds with no idea where they are located.
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Somewhat unrelated, but somewhat related and a good story: We once had an accident in which a student pilot ran out of fuel about 3 miles from shore. Before the engine quit, they pilot could see the RW lights. He executed a successful ditch... at night! Well done. Then, before the A/C sunk, he climbed up onto the wing and called 911. The county sheriff's dispatch was at eights and nines trying to figure out just what in theeeee heck this guy was going on about. Then they got the call from the tower. But, by then, it was too late. Poor sot (a champion swimmer, btw) died. At night. Alone. In the water.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You *literally* commented on it saying “don’t choose to work at one.” Which is why I said it was voted in.
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I'm fine with that. You've made your choice, can you feel those binds tightening? I have no binds so I have no idea of your discontent. Welcome to America!
 
I'd comment that the passengers were VERY fortunate to have a trained flight attendant onboard. Otherwise, you'd have had all five occupants dead. This young lady had the presence of mind to go back and use the cargo door to egress. The cargo door is designed to be able to opened from the inside, but is NOT designated or marked as an emergency exit. I've been typed on the 604/605/650 for almost 9-years, and If I were to begin to speculate what happened. I'd put forth this. I cannot actually cite them at the moment, but there are service bulletins/ADs out from Bombardier addressing some issues with the thrust levers. So, as time goes on perhaps the maintenance records of the mishap acft. might shed some light there. It would require a very definite action otherwise to select fuel-off ( Lift the trigger under the lever, hold in the up position, and retard the thrust lever to fuel-off. I don't think it's either fuel exhaustion, or contaminated fuel. Highly unlikely to have both engine-driven pumps fail simultaneously...Fortunately, the CVR/FDR location is in the aft equipment bay, which is mostly intact, the engines are mostly intact. The only physical evidence that is likely beyond use would be the cockpit. Fair winds and Following Seas to the crew, it looks like they did the best they could and once again BRAVO ZULU to the young lady in the back!!!
 
BE19Pilot said:
I'd comment that the passengers were VERY fortunate to have a trained flight attendant onboard. Otherwise, you'd have had all five occupants dead. This young lady had the presence of mind to go back and use the cargo door to egress. The cargo door is designed to be able to opened from the inside, but is NOT designated or marked as an emergency exit. I've been typed on the 604/605/650 for almost 9-years, and If I were to begin to speculate what happened. I'd put forth this. I cannot actually cite them at the moment, but there are service bulletins/ADs out from Bombardier addressing some issues with the thrust levers. So, as time goes on perhaps the maintenance records of the mishap acft. might shed some light there. It would require a very definite action otherwise to select fuel-off ( Lift the trigger under the lever, hold in the up position, and retard the thrust lever to fuel-off. I don't think it's either fuel exhaustion, or contaminated fuel. Highly unlikely to have both engine-driven pumps fail simultaneously...Fortunately, the CVR/FDR location is in the aft equipment bay, which is mostly intact, the engines are mostly intact. The only physical evidence that is likely beyond use would be the cockpit. Fair winds and Following Seas to the crew, it looks like they did the best they could and once again BRAVO ZULU to the young lady in the back!!!
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I agree with all of this. I've been around the 600 series Challengers a bit and I always thought the throttles were like the Lear and not like the Gulfstreams with a separate fuel cock lever (Beavis and Butthead fans can chuckle), it a little thing on the lever that you pull up to get to aft of idle and into cutoff. That should not be confused with reverse, those are the levers on the front of the power levers with the thing that goes up and allows you shut the engine off, that's all pilot stuff that gets drilled into everyone that flies a Challenger in a simulator every year. The CVR and the FDR, if they were working, will tell the story eventually.
 
BE19Pilot said:
I'd comment that the passengers were VERY fortunate to have a trained flight attendant onboard. Otherwise, you'd have had all five occupants dead. This young lady had the presence of mind to go back and use the cargo door to egress. The cargo door is designed to be able to opened from the inside, but is NOT designated or marked as an emergency exit. I've been typed on the 604/605/650 for almost 9-years, and If I were to begin to speculate what happened. I'd put forth this. I cannot actually cite them at the moment, but there are service bulletins/ADs out from Bombardier addressing some issues with the thrust levers. So, as time goes on perhaps the maintenance records of the mishap acft. might shed some light there. It would require a very definite action otherwise to select fuel-off ( Lift the trigger under the lever, hold in the up position, and retard the thrust lever to fuel-off. I don't think it's either fuel exhaustion, or contaminated fuel. Highly unlikely to have both engine-driven pumps fail simultaneously...Fortunately, the CVR/FDR location is in the aft equipment bay, which is mostly intact, the engines are mostly intact. The only physical evidence that is likely beyond use would be the cockpit. Fair winds and Following Seas to the crew, it looks like they did the best they could and once again BRAVO ZULU to the young lady in the back!!!
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Most likely they will find that this was Boeing's fault
 
BE19Pilot said:
I'd comment that the passengers were VERY fortunate to have a trained flight attendant onboard. Otherwise, you'd have had all five occupants dead. This young lady had the presence of mind to go back and use the cargo door to egress. The cargo door is designed to be able to opened from the inside, but is NOT designated or marked as an emergency exit. I've been typed on the 604/605/650 for almost 9-years, and If I were to begin to speculate what happened. I'd put forth this. I cannot actually cite them at the moment, but there are service bulletins/ADs out from Bombardier addressing some issues with the thrust levers. So, as time goes on perhaps the maintenance records of the mishap acft. might shed some light there. It would require a very definite action otherwise to select fuel-off ( Lift the trigger under the lever, hold in the up position, and retard the thrust lever to fuel-off. I don't think it's either fuel exhaustion, or contaminated fuel. Highly unlikely to have both engine-driven pumps fail simultaneously...Fortunately, the CVR/FDR location is in the aft equipment bay, which is mostly intact, the engines are mostly intact. The only physical evidence that is likely beyond use would be the cockpit. Fair winds and Following Seas to the crew, it looks like they did the best they could and once again BRAVO ZULU to the young lady in the back!!!
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The word is they took 350 Gallons of fuel without PRIST. They spent a couple of hours at -50 Celsius, it could be like BA38. Maybe the fuel was turned into a gel. You can then get a flame-out when you pull back on the throttles (low FF).
 
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melax said:
The word is they took 350 Gallons of fuel without PRIST. They spent a couple of hours at -50 Celsius, it could be like BA38. Maybe the fuel was turned into a gel. You can then get a flame-out when you pull back on the throttles (low FF).
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How does that work at GA airports like KOSU - is there separate jet A with and without PRIST, or is it something that's added manually?
 
Murdoughnut said:
How does that work at GA airports like KOSU - is there separate jet A with and without PRIST, or is it something that's added manually?
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Some FBOs it is all pre-mix, others it is added at the truck with a reservoir and injection pump at customer’s request.

Not every aircraft requires it, but this conversation usually leads to diesel exhaust fluid contamination (DEF). There’s been a few instances where the Prist reservoir was filled with DEF by mistake and DEF will turn Jet-A into a gel causing engine shutdowns.
 
melax said:
The word is they took 350 Gallons of fuel without PRIST. They spent a couple of hours at -50 Celsius, it could be like BA38. Maybe the fuel was turned into a gel. You can then get a flame-out when you pull back on the throttles (low FF).
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Does the 600 series require Prist? Im not familiar with the “big Challenger” but the 300/350/3500 series does not.
 
CFI A&P said:
Some FBOs it is all pre-mix, others it is added at the truck with a reservoir and injection pump at customer’s request.

Not every aircraft requires it, but this conversation usually leads to diesel exhaust fluid contamination (DEF). There’s been a few instances where the Prist reservoir was filled with DEF by mistake and DEF will turn Jet-A into a gel causing engine shutdowns.
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Yikes. Makes me wonder if Ohio State runs the FBO as well. If so, that's a profound liability, and will certainly lead university run airports to rethink things if it was a mistake on their end.
 
melax said:
The word is they took 350 Gallons of fuel without PRIST. They spent a couple of hours at -50 Celsius, it could be like BA38. Maybe the fuel was turned into a gel. You can then get a flame-out when you pull back on the throttles (low FF).
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Not likely, because the standby electric pumps would come on if the pressure from the Main ejector drops below 10psi. In theory the engines will run without the main ejector ( engine-driven pump is a positive displacement pump ), however, the main ejector supplies a high bulk of fuel at low pressure to the engine driven pump for high altitude/high power settings.
 
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