Challenger 300 Turbulence Death - Prelim Released

[BEEF SUPREME]

The industry has changed a lot since you've been over here. The shortage is so bad over here that I could make a very good living (we're talking legacy pay) off of doing contract if I'd like to. There is no worry or pressure about keeping a job anymore. I get flyers in the mail everyday about job openings. If a pilot doesn't like a position or a client gives them crap, they can simply say "no" and there's not much a company can do about it because there aren't crews to replace them with.

I honestly have never felt this pressure anyways. The rules are the rules. My career and life aren't worth getting someone into ASE on a crappy day. I'd simply take them to Eagle or Rifle and wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Hell, I usually had the decision made on what alternate to use and had their ground transportation on the way well over an hour out. ...and that was when I was 135. No amount of yelling and being upset by them would change that. It's even easier now because there simply isn't to replace a crewmember who says "no".

This splits both ways because that also means that crappy pilots can't be easily replaced and continue to skate on by.

I'm glad to hear it has gotten a lot better over there. I genuinely liked being able to have control over the operation and make the clients experience exceptional. I just got taken for granted so much that I found it wasn't worth the extra effort. I couldn't be swayed to come back for any monetary number.

Sometimes being a "cog in the wheel" on the 121 side is very frustrating. I sat in Nashville for over 8 hours waiting for maintenance that we could clearly see wasn't even happening. I've just learned to accept it and just chill. I do enjoy only concerning myself with safety and leaving the passenger experience demands to the FA. I'll make PAs but that is about it and I try and keep them to an absolute minimum.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Airborne connectivity to send flight data? Extended duration FDRs? Synthetic/enhanced vision systems? Video CVRs? All available now and being used in 91 aircraft. Either not on the radar or being fought by 121. And again, “a handful of the best operators” could be used to discuss innovation in 121 safety too.

None of these things have anything to do with accident rates. These are niceties (and in some cases, bad things, like cockpit video).

Here's my edit: "A corporate jet can be different, but most often is not."

I'd be interested to see statistics comparing "most often" to "often".

I think you've bought into the misperception that almost all corporate jet operations are cowboys.

No, I wouldn’t say “almost all,” but I think the statistics, as well as the anecdotal tales from many people here and elsewhere, make it pretty obvious that it’s a widespread problem.

 

[Roger Roger]

There are something like 4 airline flights for every bizjet flight in the US, at least according to rough statistics I found. For the life of me I can’t understand why people who work for a handful of unicorn operators are taking issue with the position that airlines as a whole are like orders of magnitude safer. Like I said, I love my 135 job but it would be ridiculous to pretend that it’s as safe as when @BEEF SUPREME flies to those same airports.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

There are something like 4 airline flights for every bizjet flight in the US, at least according to rough statistics I found. For the life of me I can’t understand why people who work for a handful of unicorn operators are taking issue with the position that airlines as a whole are like orders of magnitude safer. Like I said, I love my 135 job but it would be ridiculous to pretend that it’s as safe as when @BEEF SUPREME flies to those same airports.

It's fun that my motto on days off is "safety third" View attachment 10072022ALineTombstoneLTR100.jpg

 

[pwttogfk]

So tell me more about why cockpit video is bad? I suspect the same arguments were recycled from unions against CVRs. And I’d guess you haven’t flown a modern business jet based on how irrelevant you think some of that technology is. Bottom line—airlines pay for the level of safety mandated. If you look at the optional equipment selection guide for a business jet there’s quite a bit well above and beyond FARs available for purchase. Datalink graphical weather and airport moving maps are another couple great items that’s been all but standard for 91 for 20+ years now. Airlines are catching up but only getting there in the last few years.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So tell me more about why cockpit video is bad?

ALPA speaks for me: Investigating Airline Accidents: Cockpit Video is not the Answer

 

[KLB]

There are something like 4 airline flights for every bizjet flight in the US, at least according to rough statistics I found. For the life of me I can’t understand why people who work for a handful of unicorn operators are taking issue with the position that airlines as a whole are like orders of magnitude safer. Like I said, I love my 135 job but it would be ridiculous to pretend that it’s as safe as when @BEEF SUPREME flies to those same airports.

*My argument isn't against 121 being safer. It's more of why it's safer. It isn't necessarily because there are a bunch of 91 and 135 yokels out there doing dangerous stuff all the time. It's far more nuanced than that. Heck, the airline is hiring everyone they can get their hands on and many are coming from the 91 and 135 side.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

*My argument isn't against 121 being safer. It's more of why it's safer. It isn't necessarily because there are a bunch of 91 and 135 yokels out there doing dangerous stuff all the time. It's far more nuanced than that. Heck, the airline is hiring everyone they can get their hands on and many are coming from the 91 and 135 side.

I would agree with this. While I think there is likely more “cowboys“ in 91 than 121 just because it’s easier for them to hide there, I don’t think the average 91 pilot is a cowboy, they’re just working in a system that isn’t as safe.

 

[Roger Roger]

It isn't necessarily because there are a bunch of 91 and 135 yokels out there doing dangerous stuff all the time.

I think that a lot of the CVR/FDR data on 135/91 accidents disagrees with you. Even though there have been a handful of facepalm worthy 121 wrecks over the last 10ish years (especially the Atlas one) my reaction reading practically every 135/91 jet accident has been a huuuuge WTF.

 

[SteveC]

...
No, I wouldn’t say “almost all,” but I think the statistics, as well as the anecdotal tales from many people here and elsewhere, make it pretty obvious that it’s a widespread problem.

I would agree with this. While I think there is likely more “cowboys“ in 91 than 121 just because it’s easier for them to hide there, I don’t think the average 91 pilot is a cowboy, they’re just working in a system that isn’t as safe.

Then it sounds like you agree with my edit, changing "most often" to "often".

 

[zmiller4]

Statistics are not on your side, my friend.

“Often” vs “most often” aren’t actual values and are irrelevant terms when it comes to statistical analysis.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Then it sounds like you agree with my edit, changing "most often" to "often".

Negative, your change makes it seem as though this is not the majority. While I don’t think a majority of 91 pilots are the problem, I believe it’s quite clear that the stats show that the industry is a mess. There are incredibly few part 91 flight departments that are as standardized and safe as part 121 airlines.

“Often” vs “most often” aren’t actual values and are irrelevant terms when it comes to statistical analysis.

Hilarious. “Most” means majority, which means it’s tied to a quantifiable figure. And removing ”most” means he’s claiming that it’s less than the majority.

 

[KLB]

I think that a lot of the CVR/FDR data on 135/91 accidents disagrees with you. Even though there have been a handful of facepalm worthy 121 wrecks over the last 10ish years (especially the Atlas one) my reaction reading practically every 135/91 jet accident has been a huuuuge WTF.

Of course. I'm not discounting the yokels. But everyone os a yokel. But that doesn't mean that you'd see me on PJP with the "Hey Guys, is there anyone flying from South Florida to TEB empty who can give me a ride?" either. I wouldn't ride in the back of just anyone's jet. I definitely know how the sausage is made.

121 has more guard rails up that even protect the sucky pilots from doing stupid things.

 

[zmiller4]

Hilarious. “Most” means majority, which means it’s tied to a quantifiable figure. And removing ”most” means he’s claiming that it’s less than the majority.

Ugh.

Take a freaking statistics class and try to use language like this in your statistical analysis and you’ll get laughed out of the room.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Ugh.

Take a freaking statistics class and try to use language like this in your statistical analysis and you’ll get laughed out of the room.

Already took several college level statistics courses. Required for majoring in financial economics.

 

[zmiller4]

Already took several college level statistics courses. Required for majoring in financial economics.

And they let you get away with stuff like that? Was this Trump U?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And they let you get away with stuff like that? Was this Trump U?

Believe it or not, the way people talk in casual conversation is not the way they write a term paper. Crazy, huh?!

 

[ppragman]

I will say the lack of systems training on the 121 side has been shocking.

I wonder why this could be? It’s a shame too - because while you don’t “need” to know a lot of that stuff every day, but systems knowledge has come in handy on more than a few occasions. Also, I enjoyed learning about it?

I don’t know, in my opinion there’s need to know, nice to know, and trivia - teach all three but tell people what is what during training and only test on the need to know and some of the nice to know that’s relevant to day to day ops.

 

[BobDDuck]

It's fun that my motto on days off is "safety third" View attachment 70730

Safety first, death last... embarrassment second to last.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Who circles IMC? A circling approach is a visual maneuver.

You tell me!

Pretty sure the Gillespie (sp) accident, they couldn’t see the runway while in the turn, asking if the lights were turned up.


There are people with an ATP itself that had circle approach VMC only. All 121 type ratings I have say circle approach VMC only. I believe you can go in the sim with low weather, do an approach and get that removed.