CFI Union

[Inverted25]

I wasn't joking when saying that I think specializng can earn you more money than the average CFI. But I would love to become a golf pro. My buddy played in college and now is a instructor at a local private golfing club and makes like 45 a hour giving golfing lessons and its only his second year. Some the other pros in the area make upwards of 100 a hour teaching golf. Oh the life. I guess I"ll just stick to Tiger Woods Pro Tour 10!

 

[HeyEng]

This makes me think that if Flight instructors made a real world specialty instructor wage (golf/tennis instructor), then maybe a real pilot shortage would happen.
Maybe by us reproducing ourselves so cheaply, we are in turn hurting our wages in our next job.

Disclaimer: I'm not interested in making flight training exclusively for the rich, though it could be argued it already is, I would hope anybody who wants to be a pilot to be able to realize their dream.

Just thinking while typing.

BINGO! As long as people continue to THEMSELVES out for the opportunity to fly then this problem will continue. There are professional instructors out there that MAKE A DAMN GOOD living. They are good at what they do and refuse to work for substandard pay. I know of a fella up in NY that does nothing but accelerated instrument training. You have to bring your own airplane and he has a VERY SIMPLE one page ad online and stays booked 6 months out. Nothing fancy, he is just really good at what he does and this brings plenty of business his way. For every 8-10 days he works, he makes 4500 gross. Not bad, as far as I am concerned. I would love for Blackhawk to chime in here, because I tend to think he too stays pretty damn busy.

 

[Zero1Niner]

I deserve a fair wage and I plan to try and start fighting for it.

Only curious, but what constitutes 'deserving' a fair wage?

 

[jhugz]

Only curious, but what constitutes 'deserving' a fair wage?

I busted my ass to be were I am at along w/ all the other CFI's.

WE DESERVE FAIR COMPENSATION FOR OUR WORK.

 

[Zero1Niner]

I busted my ass to be were I am at along w/ all the other CFI's.

WE DESERVE FAIR COMPENSATION FOR OUR WORK.

as one of the aforementioned CFI's that busted his ass to get where I am, I hardly equate that to 'deserving' anything quite honestly.

We all had the choice of evaluating the job market for this type of job prior to deciding to invest our time and money in pursuing a career in this field. Its always better to make decisions based on the facts, not desires.

Its like saying 'well I busted my ass and bought that investment property in 2006 with every penny of my hard-earned life savings, and I deserve to make a profit on that place (even though its now worth half of what you paid now and you are upside down on the mortgage, and the bank wants to call the loan)'. The harsh reality about anything in this world is its supply and demand driven. Not 'demanded'. The whole entitlement mindset always blows me away a little. It always comes off to me like a reality disconnect somehow.

 

[Inverted25]

We all had the choice of evaluating the job market for this type of job prior to deciding to invest our time and money in pursuing a career in this field. Its always better to make decisions based on the facts, not desires.

:yeahthat:
I dont know that you can really put it any better than that. You knew what the wages and working conditions were like before you entered this career field. If you didnt, that is your own fault for not doing your doing your homework.

The harsh reality about anything in this world is its supply and demand driven.

This goes back to why focusing on one area of training such as accelerated instrument, will earn you more money. There is a abundance of primary instructors. That means employers dont have to pay you more than dirt because they know there will be another one lined up to take your place. Now if you offered a type of training that was hard to duplicate though. You now have leverage to ask for higher wages.

The whole entitlement mindset always blows me away a little. It always comes off to me like a reality disconnect somehow.

It is an extreme disconnect with reality. Aviation isnt the only place that it exist. At the warehouse I run we have the same issue. Employees are always bickering about how they are worth more. And the facts are they arent. We get hudnreds of job applications a week. My boss always says that we pay them too much if we are getting that many applications. Everytime an employee comes and says I will quit if I dont get more money I make their life easier and fire them. I can replace them in less than 20 minutes. And if they have reached the point that they are complaining for higher wages than their attitude will effect the workers around them and its time for them to hit the streets.

 

[Zero1Niner]

It is an extreme disconnect with reality. Aviation isnt the only place that it exist. At the warehouse I run we have the same issue. Employees are always bickering about how they are worth more. And the facts are they arent. We get hudnreds of job applications a week. My boss always says that we pay them too much if we are getting that many applications. Everytime an employee comes and says I will quit if I dont get more money I make their life easier and fire them. I can replace them in less than 20 minutes. And if they have reached the point that they are complaining for higher wages than their attitude will effect the workers around them and its time for them to hit the streets.

This attitude mostly comes from people with no business experience. If they ever had a business, or at least understood how to run a business, these comments would never pass their lips.

The fact is, the business owner, that took all of the risk to start the business, and bears the weight of keeping the business functioning and healthy, so that the employees HAVE a job to go to, should profit from his efforts. And most business owners have to weather the insane ups and downs of changing market conditions, . They often do not have the luxury of the steady paycheck that the employees have.

And again, supply and demand law states that if there are enough people that are willing to work for X, than that becomes the market price. Its simple economics really. You dont have to like it, but whatever.

And another thing...we all say we want to be paid a 'fair' wage (which results in higher cost to the consumer of course). But when the time comes for that individual to pony up for services or products that they need, the majority (not all, but a substantial majority) will shop their ass off for the best price. They wont pay the premium for someone else to make a 'fair' wage. They simply look for the best deal. Its crazy hypocritical.

 

[Inverted25]

The fact is, the business owner, that took all of the risk to start the business, and bears the weight of keeping the business functioning and healthy, so that the employees HAVE a job to go to, should profit from his efforts

Here is a fact for you. The owner of the warehouse I run and the 7 grocery stores we serve only make .8% profit off total sales. Way less than you would think!

 

[jhugz]

This attitude mostly comes from people with no business experience. If they ever had a business, or at least understood how to run a business, these comments would never pass their lips.

According to your thoughts all employees are expendable and you should treat them like crap, pay crap wages, and not have any respect for them at all. If you had any respect for them you would at least be able to get them out of the poverty level.

The fact is, the business owner, that took all of the risk to start the business, and bears the weight of keeping the business functioning and healthy, so that the employees HAVE a job to go to, should profit from his efforts. And most business owners have to weather the insane ups and downs of changing market conditions, . They often do not have the luxury of the steady paycheck that the employees have.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. The employee in this industry bears all the weight of the ups and downs. The overhead for a flight school at least mine is a joke. The school doesn't own any of the airplanes. It takes 20% off the top of every airplane rental and 60% off the top of all instruction. The only over head is the building rent, utilities, and insurance. If we have a bad month in terms of flight instruction like my last two months of 700 dollar pay checks then I'm the one hosed not management. He doesn't have to pay me if I don't have students, but yet I still have to put in 40 hours a week and come in once a month on my day off for an unpaid meeting. When the flying gets bad the MX shop picks up the slack.

And again, supply and demand law states that if there are enough people that are willing to work for X, than that becomes the market price. Its simple economics really. You dont have to like it, but whatever.

I don't have to like it nor do I have to accept it. I'm tired of being part of the problem, I want to be part of the solution. I admit I was wrong in some of my old ways but this being my first aviation job w/ hopefully many more to come I am done destroying the industry and willing to start taking steps to improve it.

And another thing...we all say we want to be paid a 'fair' wage (which results in higher cost to the consumer of course). But when the time comes for that individual to pony up for services or products that they need, the majority (not all, but a substantial majority) will shop their ass off for the best price. They wont pay the premium for someone else to make a 'fair' wage. They simply look for the best deal. Its crazy hypocritical.

It may cost the consumer more but we have a pretty darn good student base that would stay for a price jump as long as it isn't to drastic.

 

[jhugz]

:banghead::banghead:

Really we get it all ready, you run a warehouse fantastic for you. I know that you have enough money in your family not to care what you make as a pilot. I knew wages were crap going into the game but change has to start somewhere.

 

[Clocks]

jhugz, by continuing to work for substandard wages and (I assume) going to work for a regional for again substandard wages, you're helping drive wages down.

Just quit and go do a job you hate for 5x more pay. You'll help yourself and make a fraction of a difference to the people who still want to do it. Or start your own flight school and pay the CFIs $25k/year starting salary. You make it sound pretty easy?

 

[ppragman]

The bottom line is this: The average new CFI doesn't have the experience or depth and background of experience to make more than what they're currently getting. Hell, sub 2000TT or so, you simply haven't seen enough to be able to a "valuable commodity" to your employer, up until about that point, you're remarkably easy to replace. And after then, you're still replaceable, which is why a CFI union can't happen. You start to organize and you'll be gone, probably overnight. Yeah, piss poor wages suck, but it'll get better. Good things come to those who wait.

My first job I made $10/flight hour (my wages as a line boy) and I'd be gone for up to two weeks. My pay ended up working out to something like $4.30 an hour for 8hrs per day (and I was flying between 12 and 30 hrs per trip). After a month of doing this, the chief pilot got my back, and brought up the pay to $150/day, which was still low considering what I was doing, but at least then I could afford to move out of my parents place. It'll happen, it just takes time.

 

[Inverted25]

Really we get it all ready, you run a warehouse fantastic for you. I know that you have enough money in your family not to care what you make as a pilot. I knew wages were crap going into the game but change has to start somewhere.

Change doesn't happen by demanding things. I have given you ideas of ways that you could change your own situation. By thinking that you shouldn't have to specialize to make a higher wage is just showing your lack of education and understanding of how things work in a free market economy. When there are other people who can and will do the same work your doing for your crap wage you have no leverage to get higher pay. If you want higher pay you have to separate yourself from the others. Bitching about how much your pay sucks doesn't separate you from anyone. Alot of it has to do with attitude. When you come off as I deserve this so I better get it people dont want to help you. Instead your attitude should be what can I do that will benefit my situation. This is where specialization comes in. This isn't just in aviation. That is why some lawyers specialize in divorce and others in criminal defense. Why one business manager focuses on efficiency and the other on international affairs. By becoming an expert in one field your services are more valuable.

I do care what I make as a pilot. That's why I wont just go work for some school that going to treat me like crap. I'll stay at my current job and build up a specialty in a area of aviation that I happen to really enjoy. I would rather build slow to make more in the long run than rush in and take what they will give me. That's why I am also willing to branch out. The glider club that I will be getting my instructor certificate at in April allows there instructors to charge 20 a hour and the instructor keeps all of that.

There are ways to make better money. And alot of them involve going out and doing it on your own free lancing. Some can and others cant. But dont tell me I am willing to work for sup par wages when that is far from the truth.

 

[mikecweb]

Riddle instructors were union.

 

[ppragman]

Riddle instructors were union.

I'd expect they're a little bit more selective than, "wet ink CFII? You're hired!"

Probably require lots of time, or to have gone through the program at riddle, but you'd know way better than me.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Riddle instructors were union.

I believe they (the full times ones) still are. Couldn't tell you for sure, I don't fly there anymore.

I'd expect they're a little bit more selective than, "wet ink CFII? You're hired!"

Probably require lots of time, or to have gone through the program at riddle, but you'd know way better than me.

From what I've heard, you basically have to go through their program, or have tons of dual given time.

 

[ppragman]

I believe they (the full times ones) still are. Couldn't tell you for sure, I don't fly there anymore.



From what I've heard, you basically have to go through their program, or have tons of dual given time.

That's kind of what I expected. That seems to be the way a lot of collegiate programs are.

 

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by Zero1Niner
This attitude mostly comes from people with no business experience. If they ever had a business, or at least understood how to run a business, these comments would never pass their lips.

According to your thoughts all employees are expendable and you should treat them like crap, pay crap wages, and not have any respect for them at all. If you had any respect for them you would at least be able to get them out of the poverty level.

The fact is, the business owner, that took all of the risk to start the business, and bears the weight of keeping the business functioning and healthy, so that the employees HAVE a job to go to, should profit from his efforts. And most business owners have to weather the insane ups and downs of changing market conditions, . They often do not have the luxury of the steady paycheck that the employees have.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. The employee in this industry bears all the weight of the ups and downs. The overhead for a flight school at least mine is a joke. The school doesn't own any of the airplanes. It takes 20% off the top of every airplane rental and 60% off the top of all instruction. The only over head is the building rent, utilities, and insurance. If we have a bad month in terms of flight instruction like my last two months of 700 dollar pay checks then I'm the one hosed not management. He doesn't have to pay me if I don't have students, but yet I still have to put in 40 hours a week and come in once a month on my day off for an unpaid meeting. When the flying gets bad the MX shop picks up the slack.

And again, supply and demand law states that if there are enough people that are willing to work for X, than that becomes the market price. Its simple economics really. You dont have to like it, but whatever.

I don't have to like it nor do I have to accept it. I'm tired of being part of the problem, I want to be part of the solution. I admit I was wrong in some of my old ways but this being my first aviation job w/ hopefully many more to come I am done destroying the industry and willing to start taking steps to improve it.

And another thing...we all say we want to be paid a 'fair' wage (which results in higher cost to the consumer of course). But when the time comes for that individual to pony up for services or products that they need, the majority (not all, but a substantial majority) will shop their ass off for the best price. They wont pay the premium for someone else to make a 'fair' wage. They simply look for the best deal. Its crazy hypocritical.

It may cost the consumer more but we have a pretty darn good student base that would stay for a price jump as long as it isn't to drastic

Dude, it becomes so clearly apparent just how young and inexperienced you really are whenever I see your posts like this...and I have seen it from you many times.

Try running a business some day and you will understand. You have no idea of whats entailed.

The great thing about this country is that if you dont like your job, you can quit and find a new one. No one is making you stay, but dont think for a second that you are entitled to anything. You get what the market will pay.

But whatever. I realize that you already know everything, so I am done here.

 

[Douglas]

From what I've heard, you basically have to go through their program, or have tons of dual given time.

I remember back in the golden years, way back, '07-08, Riddle used to send out mailers to just about every CFI I know, trying to entice us to move down there and work for them.

Back when "weed" was "grass".

Lots of schools were sending out mailers at the time.

Back in '08 I almost asked for a 15 dollar raise, because dang-it I chose to be here for the long haul.
The entitlement went down smooth back then.

 

[mikecweb]

Dude, it becomes so clearly apparent just how young and inexperienced you really are whenever I see your posts like this...and I have seen it from you many times.

Try running a business some day and you will understand. You have no idea of whats entailed.

The great thing about this country is that if you dont like your job, you can quit and find a new one. No one is making you stay, but dont think for a second that you are entitled to anything. You get what the market will pay.

But whatever. I realize that you already know everything, so I am done here.

There is nothing wrong with trying to increase the market rate. Maybe you look at everything from just a business prospective and not a labor prospective.