Cessna Jet Accident Cedar Fort UT - Owner Operator

[fholbert]

Really sad. If I ever crash I hope I don't take anyone with me. Tucson couple killed.

Witnesses told the Utah County Sheriff’s Office they heard a loud boom and saw the airplane, on fire and coming apart, fall to the ground just before 10 a.m.

18-JAN-16 17:00:00Z N711BX CEDAR FORT UTAH CESSNA/525 ACCIDENT SUBSTANTIAL 2 AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 2 PERSONS ON BOARD WERE FATALLY INJURED, SUBJECT OF AN ALERT NOTICE, WRECKAGE LOCATED NEAR CEDAR FORT, UT

Story here: http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/01/cessna-525-citationjet-cj1-n711bx-fatal.html

 

[ChasenSFO]

It looks like he had one hell of a life. I can't imagine taking my spouse/partner out with me. Talk about an absolute worst nightmare.

I hope it was a good run, sir, tailwinds.

 

[Inverted]

Terrible what in the hell happened!?

 

[fholbert]

Looks like he was having some real problems last 7 minutes of flight..

Mon 08:55:22 AM 40.5065 -111.9494 175° South 244 281 14,500

FlightAware ADS-B (KSLC)
Mon 08:55:52 AM 40.4699 -111.9449 172° South 304 350 13,900 800

FlightAware ADS-B (KSLC)
Mon 08:56:22 AM 40.4383 -111.9406 175° South 250 288 15,300 3,200

FlightAware ADS-B (KPVU)
Mon 08:56:52 AM 40.3969 -111.9376 177° South 224 258 17,100 3,115

FlightAware ADS-B (KSLC)
Mon 08:57:14 AM 40.3756 -111.9364 180° South 219 252 18,000 973

FlightAware ADS-B (KSLC)
Mon 08:57:29 AM 40.3585 -111.9393 196° South 249 287 17,700 -1,105

FlightAware ADS-B (KSLC)
Mon 08:57:52 AM 40.3333 -111.9555 217° Southwest 275 316 17,300 1,400

FlightAware ADS-B (KPVU)
Mon 08:58:29 AM 40.3022 -111.9956 224° Southwest 219 252 19,100 3,346

FlightAware ADS-B (KSLC)
Mon 08:58:44 AM 40.2921 -112.0085 231° Southwest 178 205 20,200 3,677

FlightAware ADS-B (KBTF)
Mon 08:59:00 AM 40.2854 -112.0220 251° West 165 190 21,000 2,000

FlightAware ADS-B (KSLC)
Mon 08:59:20 AM 40.2847 -112.0425 281° West 183 211 21,400 450

FlightAware ADS-B (KSLC)
Mon 08:59:40 AM 40.2953 -112.0637 322° Northwest 235 270 21,300 -8,919

FlightAware ADS-B (KSLC)
Mon 08:59:57 AM 40.3078 -112.0745 285° West 304 350 15,900 -469

FlightAware ADS-B (KBTF)
Mon 09:00:44 AM 40.3306 -112.1061 285° West 208 239 20,800 6,255

Salt Lake Center
Mon 09:02:01 AM 40.2151 -111.9437 189° South

FlightAware Approximate

 

[z987k]

The last two sentences in the topic explain it.

 

[dustoff17]

The last two sentences in the topic explain it.

I'm not following you.....


As for my take: There's a HUGE difference between running into weather and "coming apart in flames". This one is weird. No pitot/static heat?

RIP

 

[Wardogg]

My altitude will not hold right now ... OK -- mayday -- I do need to get up higher, 711 bravo X-ray. I'm losing different instruments. I'd really like to get into clearer weather," Baker said in a radio transmission to an air traffic control tower operator.

Icing? Into a stall and overstress while recovering? Definitely sounds like he broke up in flight.

 

[z987k]

I'm not following you.....


As for my take: There's a HUGE difference between running into weather and "coming apart in flames". This one is weird. No pitot/static heat?

RIP

Owner operator.

 

[milleR]

Owner operator.

Why would that be a problem?

 

[SrFnFly227]

Owner operator.

Careful there. You're painting with a pretty wide brush.

 

[10SM CLR]

Owner operator.

There are some extremely competent owner/operators.

 

[z987k]

Why would that be a problem?

They don't and have never flown enough. Current is no where close to competent.

Careful there. You're painting with a pretty wide brush.

Ya, but the exceptions are outliers.

There are some extremely competent owner/operators.

A couple. Yes.

I mean I own and fly my own little plane, but I'm pretty terrible at it when compared to someone who flies small airplanes for a living. I simply cannot afford or have the time to actually be good at it.

 

[milleR]

They don't and have never flown enough. Current is no where close to competent.

Ya, but the exceptions are outliers.

A couple. Yes.

I mean I own and fly my own little plane, but I'm pretty terrible at it when compared to someone who flies small airplanes for a living. I simply cannot afford or have the time to actually be good at it.

Do you know how many hours this particular individual flew per year and the frequency? If he did 6 month PC's or just 12? What his aviation background and experience is? Etc.

Look, I understand there are people zipping around in SP jets that shouldn't be, but jumping to the conclusion that this crash was inevitable because he was the owner/operator seems a little premature.

Serious question- what do you consider to be "enough" flying to be competent?

 

[z987k]

Serious question- what do you consider to be "enough" flying to be competent?

There's not an exact number, but from my experience so far(jobs flying between 1000 and ~100 hours a year) it's hundreds of hours a year without large gaps in flying.

Have you never had 2-3 weeks off from flying, then get back in the cockpit and be like, oh wow, this is weird. You usually make a couple mistakes or mess up a flow. Your landing usually isn't the prettiest and you end up forgetting a few other things, generally caught by the checklist or the other pilot. But still... you can recognize it's sloppy.

 

[milleR]

There's not an exact number, but from my experience so far(jobs flying between 1000 and ~100 hours a year) it's hundreds of hours a year without large gaps in flying.

So let's throw a hypothetical out there. If he used the plane for weekly transportation and was flying 200-300 hours per year would you consider that enough to be competent? And it is a CJ after all, if it were a King Air or 421 would your opinion be different?

 

[mshunter]

So let's throw a hypothetical out there. If he used the plane for weekly transportation and was flying 200-300 hours per year would you consider that enough to be competent? And it is a CJ after all, if it were a King Air or 421 would your opinion be different?

Of course it wouldn't. It wouldn't support his opinion.

It's a situation where as much as I hate to say it, he's just about right. Everything he said, I've experienced it myself. I spent nearly two months off last year because of the way I bid around my vacation. When I finally came back to work, it felt wierd even jump seating to work, let alone sitting in the front of a jet I had 1000+ hours in.

"Hey cap'n, I haven't flown in almost two months, keep a close eye on me." I felt like the FNG all over again for the first few legs.

Most owner/operators simply don't fly enough to be proficient. Going to the sim twice a year, and putting in another 100'ish hours just isn't enough. There isn't enough cycles to keep it fresh.

As for what caused this accident, speculating on what caused it, the owner/operator scenario doesn't hold enough weight yet. We have no clue what happened.

 

[milleR]

Have you never had 2-3 weeks off from flying, then get back in the cockpit and be like, oh wow, this is weird. You usually make a couple mistakes or mess up a flow. Your landing usually isn't the prettiest and you end up forgetting a few other things, generally caught by the checklist or the other pilot. But still... you can recognize it's sloppy.

Oh absolutely. But this guy had 5 flights in the preceding 4 weeks. Check out the flightaware log. Not a ton, but (in my opinion anyway) enough to be current and proficient.

I mean, ultimately he crashed which isn't what you're supposed to do, and being a single pilot, owner/operator may very well have played a part. All I'm saying (and yes, I'm a little biased as another one of these smoking craters apparently just waiting to happen) is that you're making assumptions before the smoke has even cleared. I simply don't think it's fair to say "Oh! Owner and operator, well that explains it. Idiot."

 

[SrFnFly227]

Of course it wouldn't. It wouldn't support his opinion.

It's a situation where as much as I hate to say it, he's just about right. Everything he said, I've experienced it myself. I spent nearly two months off last year because of the way I bid around my vacation. When I finally came back to work, it felt wierd even jump seating to work, let alone sitting in the front of a jet I had 1000+ hours in.

"Hey cap'n, I haven't flown in almost two months, keep a close eye on me." I felt like the FNG all over again for the first few legs.

Most owner/operators simply don't fly enough to be proficient. Going to the sim twice a year, and putting in another 100'ish hours just isn't enough. There isn't enough cycles to keep it fresh.

As for what caused this accident, speculating on what caused it, the owner/operator scenario doesn't hold enough weight yet. We have no clue what happened.

I fly 200-250 hours per year. Of that about 60 is in a King Air single pilot and the rest is in a Challenger. You'd be amazed how flying this little becomes as routine as flying 800-900 per year. It's all about what you're used to, and neither necessarily makes you safer than the other.

 

[AAPalmTree]

Although in an emergency situation the guy did not sound completely competent on the radio. One example.. There is a big difference to those who have a decent amount of experience between saying
"Flight Level 18,0 or 18,0"
and
"1 8 thousand"

 

[Stone Cold]

There's not an exact number, but from my experience so far(jobs flying between 1000 and ~100 hours a year) it's hundreds of hours a year without large gaps in flying.

Have you never had 2-3 weeks off from flying, then get back in the cockpit and be like, oh wow, this is weird. You usually make a couple mistakes or mess up a flow. Your landing usually isn't the prettiest and you end up forgetting a few other things, generally caught by the checklist or the other pilot. But still... you can recognize it's sloppy.

Lol.