Calling V1 five knots early?

PositionAndHold said:
And a BAK-12/14 Arresting kit at both ends.
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Those are good things. For arresting gear, KEDW has the BAK-12s; would be even nicer if they had the BAK-14 kits with them too.

For barriers, MB60s are replacing many of the old BAK-9s and even older MA-1A systems. MB60 is known as the "textile braking system", which is the same as civilian EMAS
 
MikeD said:
Those are good things. For arresting gear, KEDW has the BAK-12s; would be even nicer if they had the BAK-14 kits with them too.

For barriers, MB60s are replacing many of the old BAK-9s and even older MA-1A systems. MB60 is known as the "textile braking system", which is the same as civilian EMAS
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I spent a lot of time on the Hill AFB runway making sure those -14's would go up and down. Even installed a few of the expeditionary MA-1A systems. It was a fun career field to be in. We worked on generators and then they added arresting gear as an after thought. Hooked a bunch of A/C in my three years there.
 
PositionAndHold said:
I spent a lot of time on the Hill AFB runway making sure those -14's would go up and down. Even installed a few of the expeditionary MA-1A systems. It was a fun career field to be in. We worked on generators and then they added arresting gear as an after thought. Hooked a bunch of A/C in my three years there.
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Fire dept, we had the weekend duty A-gear checks at the bases. I love the -14s, clean and out of the way when not up and in battery....nothing to have to worry about running over with some aircraft. The MA-1As were always cool just in how they functioned with the trip cable and the pop-up main gear catcher, saw a couple T-38s take those. Most of those got replaced by the BAK-15/61QSII net systems it seems, and now the MB60 starting to replace those.
 
ppragman said:
This is a crazy good scenario. I just did it in the sim for the king air and it was less than comforting - I can't imagine what it'd be like in a Boeing.
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You can get a max weight 742 airborne at an amazingly low speed.

We trained it.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I suppose you can read it that way- the reason why I'm calling V1-5 every time arbitrary is because the real world is gray in regard to reaction time. Humans vary as well as the conditions.

For example, acceleration rates vary, sometimes quite considerably from a nearly empty plane to one at maximum takeoff weight at a hot/high airport. The time that it takes to go through that 5 knots in MEX in the summer at MTOW can be double or more the amount of time that it takes to shoot through that 5 knots on an empty plane at sea level when it's near freezing.

Make sense?
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I see where you're coming from, but Bobs point is valid. Do it the same every time and you results will be more consistent.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I absolutely agree on the technique/procedure debate.

However, I'll throw it out there that universally calling V1 5 knots prior to the actual speed is not near optimum (and at times invalid) due to how dynamic that regime is.
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The same can be said for calling it at V1. If you're accelerating fast, you may very well reject past V1.

I don't have heartburn over calling V1 at 5 knots prior or at V1, but the idea of varying the calls based on conditions I do have heartburn with. Pick one, and fly it that way, and be consistent. There's no time to make those types of calculations or decisions in that scenario.

I see people Eff this up all the time in the sim. I'll have to look at the data again to confirm, but I think grades are lower on go/no go decision maneuvers than with V1 cuts. Rejecting in the high speed regime is very high risk, so being spring loaded to go flying is better than the other way around. V1-5 reinforces that.

Whatever you do, be consistent.
 
Why is it being said that V1-5 is arbitrary? You don't think V1 go/no-go decisions were studied and this was the resulting speed that balanced a "reject" call too early to meet performance requirements and one so late that it didn't take into account the intrinsic delay the studied pilots showed?
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
The same can be said for calling it at V1. If you're accelerating fast, you may very well reject past V1.

I don't have heartburn over calling V1 at 5 knots prior or at V1, but the idea of varying the calls based on conditions I do have heartburn with. Pick one, and fly it that way, and be consistent. There's no time to make those types of calculations or decisions in that scenario.

I see people Eff this up all the time in the sim. I'll have to look at the data again to confirm, but I think grades are lower on go/no go decision maneuvers than with V1 cuts. Rejecting in the high speed regime is very high risk, so being spring loaded to go flying is better than the other way around. V1-5 reinforces that.

Whatever you do, be consistent.
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Incidentally, I consider an engine failure at 400' a harder event to manage than an engine failure at V1. At least in the Bro, you had that brief pause between "Vee one" "ENGINE FAILURE ERMAHGERD CHECK POWER" "rotate" to keep the thing straight, whereas at 400' you're going to have some fun.
 
jtrain609 said:
You mean like engine failures?

The plane tells you the engine ate itself at 400'.
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His old, old, plane did that too. He just doesn't remember. You won't know until 400 ft. But as someone else said, I think most "recent" planes don't tell you anything until 400'. CRJ is the same way.
 
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Derg said:
The whole "truism" speech is something I learned after sitting in a 330 in the middle of the ocean and, well, since I was one of the few PMDL's onboard, I was supposedly the man with all the answers to "why, why, why".

Standard rate turn at an FBO, just roll until the turn coordinator is on the line.

Standard rate turn at Riddle, Figure 15% of your TAS, roll into that number, double check with your turn coordinator for accuracy.

Standard rate turn in the airline business? I don't know man, just turn it, but not more than 25 degrees, who really cares. Follow your flight director, what kind of leg distances do they want? What was the EFC again? What do you want to call "bingo"?

Fly the aircraft to please whoever judges the standard. Have a long and happy career and it is what it is.
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*southern jets ground school*

"Well at Riddle..."
 
MikeD said:
Fire dept, we had the weekend duty A-gear checks at the bases. I love the -14s, clean and out of the way when not up and in battery....nothing to have to worry about running over with some aircraft. The MA-1As were always cool just in how they functioned with the trip cable and the pop-up main gear catcher, saw a couple T-38s take those. Most of those got replaced by the BAK-15/61QSII net systems it seems, and now the MB60 starting to replace those.
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You're damned right they are!

Wait, uhh, wot? :)
 
jtrain609 said:
You mean like engine failures?

The plane tells you the engine ate itself at 400'.
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I happen to agree.

V1 "cut" - snap the thrust levers back and conduct the manuever.

V1 "go" - slow rotation, pitch, start the litany of things you have to do.

Engine failure down low, well, are you first or second stage climb? Is there an EO procedure to follow? Clean up, stay dirty, where are we going?
 
Derg said:
I happen to agree.

V1 "cut" - snap the thrust levers back and conduct the manuever.

V1 "go" - slow rotation, pitch, start the litany of things you have to do.

Engine failure down low, well, are you first or second stage climb? Is there an EO procedure to follow? Clean up, stay dirty, where are we going?
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There's nothing wrong with how the plane does it, but your first indication that the engine failed is that the thing tries to run off the side of the runway.

Which isn't a big deal if the FO is flying and you're above V1.

But let's say you're at V1 - 10, and the FO is flying. The skipper now, with no audible clues, only looking at the runway out of a plane he isn't flying, has to determine that the engine failed. Worse than that, the FO is likely saying, "It..erm...crap what's it doing!?" because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition OR an engine failure on the line right before V1 (because in the sim we abort at 90 knots or we go do a V1 cut at both companies I've been at) and the whole time we want to do a transfer of controls so the captain can do the abort?

It seems like absolute insanity to me, and I don't really want to be riding that train when it happens.
 
Derg said:
I'm hands-on-thrustlever until about 80 knots, above 80 knots when things start getting a little bumpy, my hand goes from a "grip" to a flattened hand held a few cm above the thrustlevers approaching V1, they're moving away from the thrust lever because I largely don't want a "false positive" from the FO and be spring-loaded to abort.

I've seen one high-speed RTO, like a few knots under V1 and we blew a tire, FOD'd an engine and it was a nasty experience. Imagine a fat MD-90 in SLC full of people and bags. You could have pulled the brake pads off and hosted a Mongolian BBQ party on the ramp.

In retrospect, the plane was OTS, needed to have the engine scoped, tire replaced, probably a new set of brakes and all over a fairly minor item.
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Where do you put your other hand at V1 since you don't have a yoke? #nohomo
 
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