Nope. (What?!)
Calling V1 five knots early?
- Thread starter SteveC
- Start date
Nope. (What?!)
Nick
Well-Known Member
777 has had it since 1994.
I'm glad, too, so that it sets a precedent and hopefully other new stuff will follow.
Because apparently, there's quite a few who think V1 is a good time to throw in a pilot trick of calling an airspeed out orally when it is not the speed on the speed tape, and in doing so, ignoring hundreds of hours of engineering calculations that took place somewhere other than a cockpit in momentary distress barreling down a runway.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
We officially agree at The Tabernacle that the decision to stop must be made, and the thrust/power levers retarded to IDLE BEFORE V1. This is a subtle detail not often discussed, but you are going flying at or above V1 short of a @MikeD nightmare scenario realizing itself.
(That is, not only must you decide to stop ["REJECT, MY CONTROLS"] but you need to start stopping!)
NewYorkophile
Fly Casual
I imagine the discussion is academic in the 121 world.
In 91 (and military), we don't have the runway buffers you guys get to use in all your calculations. Sometimes the runway is 3000 feet, and you better not be effing around after the "Go" call (our equivalent to V1), or you're swapping paint with something. It gets called at the actual number, not before.
In 91 (and military), we don't have the runway buffers you guys get to use in all your calculations. Sometimes the runway is 3000 feet, and you better not be effing around after the "Go" call (our equivalent to V1), or you're swapping paint with something. It gets called at the actual number, not before.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
To me though, a failure resuting in an abort would be obvious before V1. The PM isn't waiting to check these things until V1 but is continuously monitoring them. If the PM calls "left engine failure" before V1 it's an abort. If they call V1 before that, you go. There is a reason you brief this ahead of time. There is no time for decisions.
Really by calling V1 early, you're not being 5 knots safer. You are wasting 5 knots during which you could still call a failure and abort with an uneventful ending.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
It is not 'muddy'.
In the book of the plane I fly, you are to call it out at V1-5 for the reasons mentioned. @dasleben mentioned it was a Boeing thing and I really have no idea. I forget what it was on the Airbus. @SmoothLanderJ what is it at your place? Calling V1-5 makes sense in the broader picture which no one has talked about in depth yet (not surprising).
After 100 knots you are in a go orientated mode and are only going to abort the takeoff for a fire, engine failure, wind shear or if the plane is unsafe or unable to fly. We brief those items every time there is a new Captain and First Officer pair. The V1-5 call reinforces this go orientated mode so it works in the bigger system of how the plane should be operated. Just got done with my recurrent and the plane flies just fine calling out V1-5 with engine failures.
This is really a silly discussion. The bigger concern (at least for me) and a much more practical scenario about take-off speeds is being able to figure out what to do because of a runway incursion in the high speed regime. Can you stop the plane in time when the lost 747 down the field enters the runway you are rumbling down at 120 knots (when V1 is 145) or do you under rotate by 25-30 knots as you can't stop in time???
Cool, sounds good. Meets the intent. Should call it the same thing then: V1. The same definition is being used for both techniques.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Still missing the points.
It also isn't a technique as it is procedure at my place along with other operators.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Some airlines renamed it to emphasize at V1 we are going now, we aren't "deciding". You made you're decision when that guy next to you started saying "veeeeeeee". Supposedly some other carriers did it and we were following suit.
Lies lies, and damn training departments.
No. No, man. Sheet, no, man. I believe you'd get your ass kicked sayin' something like that, man.
Not missing anything. You're somewhat missing what I'm saying about technique/procedure. Your technique is your procedure there because that's the only method the company adopted. And that's fine. It's sound procedure, it's safe, it works, it accomplishes what it's designed to accomplish. However other companies may use a different technique as their procedure. Both techniques accomplish the same overall objective in the big picture, but taken individually, they are indeed techniques as they are methods to accomplish a task. That's the differentiation I was using.
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That's a big problem when you merge two groups. One groups "techniques" that are "procedures" are seen as universal, which they are not.
So when Airline A brings their "Truisms of How The World Works" when they merge with Airline B's "This is How The Lord Intended For Us to Fly Dis Jet" and hilarity ensues.
I dealt with that fairly often after the merger. "A" said "B" didn't have any standards and weren't safe "B" said "A" probably had a procedure on the one way to properly wipe their butts after a dump that was universal for everything from a solid "regular" to a smooth 'n creamy "I ate too much dairy" poo.
Personally, who cares. What does the manufacturer want, what did the owner and the FAA CMO agree upon and is it safe and prudent? Flaps one, call for taxi, let's go fly (*)
(*) Yes, now I have to "COMMAND!" flaps one and when to call for taxi now… *giggle* whatever, not my jet.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
V1 has a built in delay of two seconds for balanced fields.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
This is a crazy good scenario. I just did it in the sim for the king air and it was less than comforting - I can't imagine what it'd be like in a Boeing.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
This came up a while back with us. Two pilots one Lear 45. So we both started calling V1 about five knots prior. We also paid attention when the other pilot removed his hands from the throttles (sorry thrust levers) and what the speed was. Every time you're blowing through V1 by the time the other guy has even heard it called. We've all seen the data. Aborting on the remaining runway for some thing stupid is far more dangerous than continuing and landing with the full runway available or an alternate longer runway. I'm sure most 121 places still brief the whole "above 80kts we'll only abort for engine fire/failure, loss of directional control or the airplane won't fly" right? So years of training has told us being keyed to "go" once you're close to V1 should be the choice. If you call V1 at V1 and decide to abort, in the Lear you'll be above Vr before you start decelerating. And you're balanced field length gets tossed out the window at that point.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
Spot on. Most guys remove their hands from the thrust levers a couple knots before V1 since there's no time to make the decision and initiate action.
I don't like this V1-5 stuff... pretty dumb if you ask me. It's a slippery slope on selecting arbitrary numbers that aren't the actual performance numbers. Besides, more and more modern aircraft have auto V1 callouts. Are you guys bugging V1 5 knots low on those aircraft?
I kind of like the military thing of calling "go" at V1. That's really what you're doing.
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PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
Just curious the difference between V1-5 and "Most guys remove their hands from the thrust levers a couple knots before V1 since there's no time to make the decision at that point."
It's probably a good idea to talk about things that you'd actually abort for.
Specifically, at my employer it's like this:
0 to 80 knots, any red (master warning) or yellow (master caution) light, window sliding open, blown tire…
80 knots to V1 - Red Lights (master warning), "Fire Fear Failure" Any fire indication, an engine failure or you are 100% convinced she's not going to fly
V1 - you're flying.
The red and yellow warning/caution lights have some airspeed-dependent "logic" on this specific airplane.
Specifically, at my employer it's like this:
0 to 80 knots, any red (master warning) or yellow (master caution) light, window sliding open, blown tire…
80 knots to V1 - Red Lights (master warning), "Fire Fear Failure" Any fire indication, an engine failure or you are 100% convinced she's not going to fly
V1 - you're flying.
The red and yellow warning/caution lights have some airspeed-dependent "logic" on this specific airplane.