Calling out another pilot.

[USMCmech]

Inspired by recent events;

Aviation is largely a self policing activity. When and how should a pilot deal with another pilot who is doing something illeagal, unsafe, stupid, or inappropriate.




My opinion,

It's NEVER OK to call the FAA unless you are in a formal position of leadership (chief pilot, airport manager, head instructor, ect), the activity is willful and deliberate, and ALL other avenues have been exausted.

If you haven't ever worked in that segment of the industry, keep your mouth shut. I don't want a RJ pilot telling me about how to fly through weather in a Caravan. I promise not to tell Doug how to fly his jet across the ocean. I don't know jack about flying in Alaska, nor have I ever flown in an Ag plane, so I don't have any way to know if that is normal ops or a crazy idiot.

If it's a judgment call that you would have made differently then ASK why they went with he option they did. You will probably learn something. Regardless, each and every one of us draws the line somewhere different, and just because you don't like it doesn't mean that you are right.

If it's somebody you know, then just talk to them. 99% of the time they have a good reason for doing what they did, based on facts that you were not aware of that the time.

If you don't know the person, then find someone who does. Most people completely disregard the opinion of strangers. However, if they hear the same thing from someone they know it carries much more weight. If that person is "older and wiser", then even better.

If that approach is not working, then go up their chain of command, or use the formal methods like the FAA FAST team, or pro standards group from the union. Involve as few official steps as possible. The more informally things can be handled, the better.



If something is urgent or very dangerous, then be as forceful as you need to be. I'm not above slashing tires to keep a plane on the ground if my friend with a family is about to take off drunk.


What are your thoughts?

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Inspired by recent events;

Aviation is largely a self policing activity. When and how should a pilot deal with another pilot who is doing something illeagal, unsafe, stupid, or inappropriate.

Roll of quarters in a sock. Problem solved.


For the most part, I agree... treat the problem from the inside first. If it is just blatant disregard though, then he's got no business flying..

 

[Boris Badenov]

In short, MYOFB.

 

[esa17]

I went to another pilot the other day and as soon as I said something he got aggressive and defensive at which point the gloves were off. In hind sight I should have conducted myself better for which I apologized. I did not apologize for my intent because what was said needed saying. I learned a great deal from the encounter, mostly about myself.

It's important to speak your mind and it's important to work together. It's not important we like eachother or guard your feelings.

Going over someones head is very rarely a good idea.

 

[deadstick]

It's NEVER OK to call the FAA unless you are in a formal position of leadership (chief pilot, airport manager, head instructor, ect), the activity is willful and deliberate, and ALL other avenues have been exausted.

This is too broad for all situations. Sometimes, based on your own experience, you realize that there is no other course of action early on, especially if you are familiar with the individual or his leadership/boss. If the guy burns a hole in the ground, that can be detrimental you your job ("Small planes always fall out of the sky!!!").

Never say never.

 

[Blackhawk]

In short, MYOFB.

Yes, but if it involves you then it becomes your business.
Case in point. There is a local airport with an AG operation. We had difficulties with the pilots at this operation "playing nice with others". Now I understand the importance of speed in AG operations and understand they may be NORDO. But we had them cutting off student pilots and CFIs; popping up from low level and landing over airplanes taking off or landing in the opposite direction to airplanes on the takeoff roll; they actually told me on the radio that we were suppose to avoid this airport when they were there and if we did not like their operations, tuff luck (no NOTAM, public use airport). When I contacted the airport manager even he begged me to call the FSDO and complain to their POI.
Low level stuff is the same. Do it yourself in the middle of nowhere, I don't really care. But when one guy flew below tree top level over my daughter who was on horse back, spooked the horse so bad it almost dumped my daughter... well, I tracked him down at the airport and we had a "discussion" about low altitude flying over populated areas.
Finally, aerobatics in non-aerobatic rental airplanes. I have 0 tolerance. Other people fly the airplane assuming it has been flown in operations that conform to its type certificate so you a messing with innocent people when you do this.

 

[N99999]

Inspired by recent events;

Aviation is largely a self policing activity. When and how should a pilot deal with another pilot who is doing something illeagal, unsafe, stupid, or inappropriate.




My opinion,

It's NEVER OK to call the FAA unless you are in a formal position of leadership (chief pilot, airport manager, head instructor, ect), the activity is willful and deliberate, and ALL other avenues have been exausted.

If you haven't ever worked in that segment of the industry, keep your mouth shut. I don't want a RJ pilot telling me about how to fly through weather in a Caravan. I promise not to tell Doug how to fly his jet across the ocean. I don't know jack about flying in Alaska, nor have I ever flown in an Ag plane, so I don't have any way to know if that is normal ops or a crazy idiot.

If it's a judgment call that you would have made differently then ASK why they went with he option they did. You will probably learn something. Regardless, each and every one of us draws the line somewhere different, and just because you don't like it doesn't mean that you are right.

If it's somebody you know, then just talk to them. 99% of the time they have a good reason for doing what they did, based on facts that you were not aware of that the time.

If you don't know the person, then find someone who does. Most people completely disregard the opinion of strangers. However, if they hear the same thing from someone they know it carries much more weight. If that person is "older and wiser", then even better.

If that approach is not working, then go up their chain of command, or use the formal methods like the FAA FAST team, or pro standards group from the union. Involve as few official steps as possible. The more informally things can be handled, the better.



If something is urgent or very dangerous, then be as forceful as you need to be. I'm not above slashing tires to keep a plane on the ground if my friend with a family is about to take off drunk.


What are your thoughts?

:clap:

 

[Sol Rosenburg]

Finally, aerobatics in non-aerobatic rental airplanes. I have 0 tolerance. Other people fly the airplane assuming it has been flown in operations that conform to its type certificate so you a messing with innocent people when you do this.

Having time in a certain Arrow that "lost" its tail I take this to heart. It still shocks me how close I came to being a victim of another's ignorance.

 

[ColoradoPilot]

Yes, but if it involves you then it becomes your business.
Case in point. There is a local airport with an AG operation. We had difficulties with the pilots at this operation "playing nice with others". Now I understand the importance of speed in AG operations and understand they may be NORDO. But we had them cutting off student pilots and CFIs; popping up from low level and landing over airplanes taking off or landing in the opposite direction to airplanes on the takeoff roll; they actually told me on the radio that we were suppose to avoid this airport when they were there and if we did not like their operations, tuff luck (no NOTAM, public use airport). When I contacted the airport manager even he begged me to call the FSDO and complain to their POI.
Low level stuff is the same. Do it yourself in the middle of nowhere, I don't really care. But when one guy flew below tree top level over my daughter who was on horse back, spooked the horse so bad it almost dumped my daughter... well, I tracked him down at the airport and we had a "discussion" about low altitude flying over populated areas.
Finally, aerobatics in non-aerobatic rental airplanes. I have 0 tolerance. Other people fly the airplane assuming it has been flown in operations that conform to its type certificate so you a messing with innocent people when you do this.

Amen (And I hope you did call the FSDO. No one has a right to fly like that.

 

[Blackhawk]

Wow... did I really miss the proof reading on that last sentence?

 

[derg]

Just talk to one another.

ESPECIALLY when it deals with the online world.

Remember, this is us.

Not the events over the past few weeks.

Let's bring that back.

 

[sdfcvoh]

Wow... did I really miss the proof reading on that last sentence?

I thought it had a good ring to it when read forcefully.

 

[Okie_Pilot]

It's NEVER OK to call the FAA unless you are in a formal position of leadership (chief pilot, airport manager, head instructor, ect), the activity is willful and deliberate, and ALL other avenues have been exausted.

If you haven't ever worked in that segment of the industry, keep your mouth shut. I don't want a RJ pilot telling me about how to fly through weather in a Caravan. I promise not to tell Doug how to fly his jet across the ocean. I don't know jack about flying in Alaska, nor have I ever flown in an Ag plane, so I don't have any way to know if that is normal ops or a crazy idiot.

:yeahthat: :clap:

In short, MYOFB.

I love you.

Just talk to one another.

ESPECIALLY when it deals with the online world.

Remember, this is us.

Not the events over the past few weeks.

Let's bring that back.

And I love you.

 

[aloft]

If you haven't ever worked in that segment of the industry, keep your mouth shut. I don't want a RJ pilot telling me about how to fly through weather in a Caravan. I promise not to tell Doug how to fly his jet across the ocean. I don't know jack about flying in Alaska, nor have I ever flown in an Ag plane, so I don't have any way to know if that is normal ops or a crazy idiot.

:yeahthat:

A guy I used to work with nearly lost his job over a pilot who didn't work for the company sticking his nose where it didn't belong.

In the mapping biz, there is pressure to maximize use of the daily shooting "window", which is based on sun angles and it's not uncommon to stretch one's fuel to the limits in order to do so--particularly when shooting close to the airport. Is it unsafe? I don't think so. Flying the same aircraft at the same power settings for hundreds of hours, you tend to get intimately familiar with your engine's fuel burn and can safely manage the flight accordingly. I personally never landed with less than about 20 minutes of fuel left, and I was comfortable with that. (For cross-country ops, especially at night or IFR, I always adhered to far more conservative reserves; I'm talking about day VFR mapping ops in the vicinity of an airport.)

Anyway, one day during the season after I left the company, one of the pilots nearly exhausted his fuel; the engine quit on him just after taxiing clear of the runway. He then had the plane towed back to the ramp and had it fueled. The fueler happened to also be a CFI and he got all self-righteous when he saw the empty tanks, saying that if he saw the pilot take off in that airplane, he'd report him to the FSDO for reckless operation. The company owner had to get involved, and it almost cost the pilot his job.

To me, it underscored the problem of low-time CFIs getting a little big for their britches. Though many would like to think otherwise, a CFI ticket does not make you an expert on anything other than teaching the basics.

 

[BajtheJino]

In short, MYOFB.

Sage advice for the ages. Just imagine how great life would be If people just kept their noses out of others peoples business. You don't force anything on me and I won't bother you. In short MYOFB (unless what that person is doing is going to literally kill you or a loved one).

 

[Boris Badenov]

Sage advice for the ages. Just imagine how great life would be If people just kept their noses out of others peoples business. You don't force anything on me and I won't bother you. In short MYOFB (unless what that person is doing is going to literally kill you or a loved one).

Thanks. I might disagree with you (or anyone else) on things, but everyone does. I think maybe that's the root of the problem...(some) people can't figure out how to disagree and still mind their own business. Believe me, there are tons of things that pilots do that irritate the everloving bejesus out of me, but unless they're buzzing my daughter on a horse or directly threatening my personal safety, I figure let sleeping dogs lie.

And should they be doing something that I find beyond the pale in a GA environment, I like to think I'd have the stones to talk to them personally and explain why I feel that I have to, rather than run off and tug on Big Brother's pants leg. Maybe the 121 version of that is pro-standards, I don't know enough to comment on that.

And yes, of course, if someone is threatening your life or those of someone you love, you have to do something about it. But it would take a heck of a lot of other failed other options for me to pick up the phone and call the FSDO. One of the best things about America is a deep and abiding mistrust of Authority and its various breeds of squirming, self-righteous Informants.

Big Boys (and Girls) talk about their problems with one another. Babies run screaming to Mommy.

 

[dasleben]

Anyway, one day during the season after I left the company, one of the pilots nearly exhausted his fuel; the engine quit on him just after taxiing clear of the runway. He then had the plane towed back to the ramp and had it fueled. The fueler happened to also be a CFI and he got all self-righteous when he saw the empty tanks, saying that if he saw the pilot take off in that airplane, he'd report him to the FSDO for reckless operation. The company owner had to get involved, and it almost cost the pilot his job.

Erm, well, I wouldn't report the guy to the FAA, but running out of fuel like this is a pretty big deal... I'd have probably said something to the guy myself.

 

[derg]

Professional Standards is basically a intermediary.

Let's say I think coa787 is being unprofessional, taking unnecessary risks and:

(a) I had the cajones to talk to him and he didn't respond

or

(b) I did NOT have the cajones to talk to him.

A call is made to professional standards. He will contact both pilots, listen to both sides of the story and help us both work towards a resolution without COA and I having to run around behind one another's backs.

It's on of the most beneficial aspects of a union -- the ability to use a third party to foster conflict resolution in a non-jeapordy event.

I know a guy who was asked to fly with a 'problem pilot' and report back to the line check airman. The person's answer was "I'm not an evaluator and have the pilots that had problems with the pilot in question contacted Professional Standards?" and that was the last he ever heard of it.

The system is there to help us prevent cutting off our nose to spite our face. Just gotta use it.

Believe it or not, there have been some stories go around that instead of flight attendants "writing up" pilots, they have the ability to go to pro-standards and resolve the conflict without "going to the company".

 

[Tram]

But when one guy flew below tree top level over my daughter who was on horse back, spooked the horse so bad it almost dumped my daughter... well, I tracked him down at the airport and we had a "discussion" about low altitude flying over populated areas.

I guess your daughter was riding a horse in the city or a "populated area?"

 

[Guy]

Sage advice for the ages. Just imagine how great life would be If people just kept their noses out of others peoples business. You don't force anything on me and I won't bother you. In short MYOFB (unless what that person is doing is going to literally kill you or a loved one).

Would you mind your own business if you knew about this?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-07-27-Texas-starvation_N.htm

or this?

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/explore?tag=animal-abuse

Neither of those would kill you or your loved one.