Bumblebee
Commodore
Are you a lawyer?
no....but I am married to one (14 years) so osmosis and all that:insane:
Calling it Quits to Aviation as a Profession!
- Thread starter Bigey
- Start date
no....but I am married to one (14 years) so osmosis and all that:insane:
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Not sure why it's so hard for you guys to see what Bumblebee's been saying. Seems pretty simple to me. :dunno:
In any case, I completely disagree that there is no money in aviation. There will be incredible opportunities in aviation for quiet some time to come. All it takes is good networking skills, and yes, persistence.
In any case, I completely disagree that there is no money in aviation. There will be incredible opportunities in aviation for quiet some time to come. All it takes is good networking skills, and yes, persistence.
Sunburn
Well-Known Member
-Pulls both sides together-
First, Bubblebee, it is not the meaning of your words that are abrasive, it is the sound, the cold simplicity of them that make them seem overbearing. I know that I am sticking me hand into the press right now, but by the meaning of the word, one whom quits cannot be persistent (to not quit/give up). Yes, some times a lack of persistence is the best course. Persistent is a thing, it is or is not. Stupidity is also a thing, sometimes it is stupid to be persistent. I.E. It would have been stupid for me to be persistent in car sales, as the economy was collapsing around me. However, for me, it would have been stupid for me to not be persistent in ATC, even through I am not where I want to be (read the City of Stockton), but I will make it, because for me, the goal is worth the cost.
I digress.
To the OP, I truly wish you the best in your business. From the sound of it, I would like the name and location of your family's place, because I'm all for good food. (Probably why I have to fly a C172 instead of a C152)
First, Bubblebee, it is not the meaning of your words that are abrasive, it is the sound, the cold simplicity of them that make them seem overbearing. I know that I am sticking me hand into the press right now, but by the meaning of the word, one whom quits cannot be persistent (to not quit/give up). Yes, some times a lack of persistence is the best course. Persistent is a thing, it is or is not. Stupidity is also a thing, sometimes it is stupid to be persistent. I.E. It would have been stupid for me to be persistent in car sales, as the economy was collapsing around me. However, for me, it would have been stupid for me to not be persistent in ATC, even through I am not where I want to be (read the City of Stockton), but I will make it, because for me, the goal is worth the cost.
I digress.
To the OP, I truly wish you the best in your business. From the sound of it, I would like the name and location of your family's place, because I'm all for good food. (Probably why I have to fly a C172 instead of a C152)
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
And this right here is why I get annoyed with you constantly reminding us that you cannot be persistent if you quit. By your own admission you need more than just persistence in order to be successful. A lot more. But as soon as someone quits, you glibly chime in and say they weren't persistent enough. When someone questions you on it, you smugly restate the definition of persistence several times as though they were a complete moron who never made it past the 5th grade.
Let me give you an analogy. Lets bake some bread. In order to make bread you need, among other things, eggs, flour and yeast. And then you need to bake them together in order to get the dough to rise. The eggs, flour and yeast? That's the being a good employee, networking and having a good dash of timing and good luck. The oven? That's the persistence.
So lets say someone leaves out the yeast and their bread never rises. Then they come here and talk about how they tried to make some bread but it didn't work for them. And you come along and tell them that they didn't leave it in oven long enough. They didn't put the yeast in so the bread was never going to rise, but you state over and over that the reason they weren't successful because they didn't leave it in the oven long enough. It was never going to rise because there was no yeast. But according to you, they simply didn't leave it in the over long enough and that's that. It's a jerk off and dismissive statement and it makes you sound like an arrogant prick. Were you intending to sound like an arrogant prick? Probably not. But you sound like one none the less. So now, pretty please, with sugar on top, can we just accept that we don't agree and things are what they are and just let it drop?
greaper007
Well-Known Member
Hitler was persistent. With enough work maybe someday I can storm the Reichstag.....
Persistence is great, just don't let it consume you. I think most of us know widebody captains that are on their third marriage and have kids they barely know. Hell that's not even a trait that's unique to aviation. Take anyone that's very successful in any business and I think you'll see the failures that contributed to their success.
What I think people are taking issue with is that you're basically equating bowing out of the profession with lack of character. Words like persistence and quitting are loaded terms and I think you know that. Even if the marriam webster definition satisfies the cover, the nuance is still present.
We all have to live our lives as we see fit. Personally though, I don't see the "persistence" that's required for some aspects of this career as noble. YMMV
Persistence is great, just don't let it consume you. I think most of us know widebody captains that are on their third marriage and have kids they barely know. Hell that's not even a trait that's unique to aviation. Take anyone that's very successful in any business and I think you'll see the failures that contributed to their success.
What I think people are taking issue with is that you're basically equating bowing out of the profession with lack of character. Words like persistence and quitting are loaded terms and I think you know that. Even if the marriam webster definition satisfies the cover, the nuance is still present.
We all have to live our lives as we see fit. Personally though, I don't see the "persistence" that's required for some aspects of this career as noble. YMMV
nocturnalaviator
AI Jedi
Yeah seriously. All this talk about persistence, I think you burnt the bread! MMM... bread.
Bumblebee
Commodore
If you want to make bread, and you mess up the ingredients the first time, you try again...or you say...I can never make bread. Or maybe you feel that you will never make a bread that is worthy of your time and effort so it is not worth it to me to make bread.
That does not mean that most people who so desire can not make bread that would satisfy them
Prior to the above comment, I never acted glib, nor said that someone who did not continue to pursue an aviation career was of week character...not once. I merely said that they did not per·se·vere when it came to aviation (If they stopped trying to make money in aviation). I even made attempts to distinguish between this and a lack of character. If you want to take things out of context and say that I am a arrogant prick, well so be it.
[pur-suh-veer] Show IPA verb,-vered, -ver·ing.
–verb (used without object)
1.
to persist in anything undertaken; maintain a purpose in spite of difficulty, obstacles, or discouragement; continue steadfastly.
(definition provided purely to be clear...not to irritate....OK...OK because you said I am an arrogant prick )
That does not mean that most people who so desire can not make bread that would satisfy them
Prior to the above comment, I never acted glib, nor said that someone who did not continue to pursue an aviation career was of week character...not once. I merely said that they did not per·se·vere when it came to aviation (If they stopped trying to make money in aviation). I even made attempts to distinguish between this and a lack of character. If you want to take things out of context and say that I am a arrogant prick, well so be it.
[pur-suh-veer] Show IPA verb,-vered, -ver·ing.
–verb (used without object)
1.
to persist in anything undertaken; maintain a purpose in spite of difficulty, obstacles, or discouragement; continue steadfastly.
(definition provided purely to be clear...not to irritate....OK...OK because you said I am an arrogant prick
)
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
Never said you were an arrogant prick. I worded my statement very carefully as a matter of fact. Go back and read it again, because quite frankly, you still sound like one. Now drop it already.(definition provided purely to be clear...not to irritate....OK...OK because you said I am an arrogant prick
Bumblebee
Commodore
You worded it like someone who wanted to say it but did not want to get in trouble for saying it ...
LOL
I am curious why people want to come on an aviation website and say that you can't make a living in aviation... and then think that someone who has and takes them on and states the opposite acts like a arrogant prick. Then has the audacity to tell them to drop it! AMAZING!!! While parsing words so they can make the insinuation without making the statement!
I think the truth hurts.
Hey, why don't you just give up?
You can make a living in aviation if you really want to. If not be happy with your choices and go about your business...
Like anything else in aviation, these rules still apply:
1. There are no guarantees.
2. Life isn't fair.
3. Timing is everything
4. Seniority has its privileges
Now, depending on one's motivations, abilities, monetary availability, and flexibility.....among other factors......some of these can be influenced in one way or another in order to help (or hurt) that person.
1. There are no guarantees.
2. Life isn't fair.
3. Timing is everything
4. Seniority has its privileges
Now, depending on one's motivations, abilities, monetary availability, and flexibility.....among other factors......some of these can be influenced in one way or another in order to help (or hurt) that person.
WacoFan
Bigly
It seems as if people are being persistent in not understanding the word persistent. Dale is correct in his assessment of the definition. There was a comment that it "takes a lot more than persistence to make it in aviation" which I don't understand. You do whatever (Networking, etc, etc) as part of the process of being persistent. It is impossible to be persistent and quit at something...unless you become persistent at quitting things. To say that you are persistent in your quest for a goal even though you quit chasing that goal and now have a new goal is nonsensical.
Now, is the persistence toward a given goal worth it? That is the question. For Dale, it was - based upon his own goals and income needs. For others it isn't and they make that decision and as long as it is the correct one for them then all is well.
Now, is the persistence toward a given goal worth it? That is the question. For Dale, it was - based upon his own goals and income needs. For others it isn't and they make that decision and as long as it is the correct one for them then all is well.
:yeahthat:
I tried full-time civilian aviation for exactly one year and dropped it like a hot rock. Just wasn't for me. I was not persistent with it and I quit. Had I persisted with it, I'm sure I would've had continued success. As a civilian aviation quitter, I find no offense whatsoever in what Dale is saying.
What I think Dale is saying is that:
1 - It takes persistence to be successful in aviation.
2 - You can't be successful in aviation if you quit it.
atpwannabe
Well-Known Member
Bigey:
I've had professional & personality conflicts with those whom I worked with in aviation....and yes, working for an airline as ramp agent or even in airport management, which is what I did for living, has it's challenges. Each profession out there has its own unique set of challenges. You'll encounter them in the catering field as well.
I just wanted to say that I've read a number of your posts over the past year and would say that aviation is in your blood. Just as a previous poster said,"you may be a CFI part-time or be the guy at EAA that gives the young eagles their discovery flight".
I wish you all the best my friend.
Blue skies.
atp
I've had professional & personality conflicts with those whom I worked with in aviation....and yes, working for an airline as ramp agent or even in airport management, which is what I did for living, has it's challenges. Each profession out there has its own unique set of challenges. You'll encounter them in the catering field as well.
I just wanted to say that I've read a number of your posts over the past year and would say that aviation is in your blood. Just as a previous poster said,"you may be a CFI part-time or be the guy at EAA that gives the young eagles their discovery flight".
I wish you all the best my friend.
Blue skies.
atp
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
WacoFan
Bigly
Joe...nobody is saying that your feelings about aviation are not valid or relevant to your experience. Many people on this site have found aviation to be a steaming loaf (to tie your bread analogy with scatology).
What people are disagreeing with is your definition and perception of the word "persist" and its forms. Now, persistence means sticking to ONE goal and doing whatever it takes to achieve that goal - networking, doing well at your jobs, going above and beyond, or whatever. Persistence does not guarantee success - luck also plays a part. Persistence can maybe be defined as doing all of the things to put yourself into a position to get your "lucky" break.
Now, it is impossible to claim persistence of you quit trying to achieve a goal. That is simply impossible in my understanding of the word. It is not a criticism, nor is it any kind of remark on you or anyone elses character. Hitler was persistent in invading Russia until they drove them back fto Berlin - that is an example of persistence that was not for the best. Truman was persistent in pursuing Civil Rights - a form of persistence that is good. General LeMay was NOT persistent with with high altitude bombing of Japan...so he changed course and fire-bombed from low to middle altitudes with great effect - an example of not persisting with a flawed strategy and getting a better result for trying something new.
All of those are examples of persistence, or lack of. Aviation didn't work for you so you adjusted. Aviation did work for Dale so he stayed the course. Both of you are telling your story here for other to learn from. It's a festivus miracle!
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
I get all that. I really do. I got it all from the first post as a matter of fact. So I think we all agree that if that little kitty cat gives up and goes home without reaching the top of the slide, we can safely say he was not persistent in his pursuit of reaching the top of the slide. Where I think we differ is that I don't feel its accurate to then say the cat didn't get to the top of the slide because he wasn't persistent. Rather I think the opposite is probably true. He was not persistent because he realized he was never going to reach the top of the slide. Or because he decided it wasn't worth the effort.
That's what I've been saying all along and the best Dale can do is post Webster's definitions over and over. We all agree on the definition of persistence. We all agree that someone who quits does not fit that definition. Where we differ is that I don't think its fair to point at someone who quits and reason that they failed simply because they lacked persistence.
Dale found a way to get to the top of the slide. That cat? Not going to happen. Or at least its not going to happen via his own merits. Maybe someone will come along and pick him up and put him on the top. But he's never going to get there on his own.
Now here's where Dale will chime in and talk about how if that cat had been persistent in networking he would have found someone who would have picked him up and carried him to the top of the slide. All I can say is I networked all I could and I still felt like that cat. Networking is important. But it isn't a guarantee. Even if you're persistent at it. You could be persistent at networking until the day you die and it could still never get you anywhere because there are no guarantees. So if we look back at our little cat, I think we can agree that its unlikely that he will be eternally persistent because that's just crazy. But its also crazy to then say he didn't get to the top because he wasn't persistent as if that's the only factor.
And that last sentence right there is my only issue with this whole deal. Everyone says that timing and luck are also important factors. And I agree with that. But that means there are going to be some folks who end up being that little cat running at the bottom of the slide and never getting anywhere. Its unlikely that they're going to be eternally persistent. And I for one think it is completely unfair to say they failed simply because, or only because, they were not persistent. That's my beef. If you don't agree with my opinion on that, you don't agree.
That's what I've been saying all along and the best Dale can do is post Webster's definitions over and over. We all agree on the definition of persistence. We all agree that someone who quits does not fit that definition. Where we differ is that I don't think its fair to point at someone who quits and reason that they failed simply because they lacked persistence.
Dale found a way to get to the top of the slide. That cat? Not going to happen. Or at least its not going to happen via his own merits. Maybe someone will come along and pick him up and put him on the top. But he's never going to get there on his own.
Now here's where Dale will chime in and talk about how if that cat had been persistent in networking he would have found someone who would have picked him up and carried him to the top of the slide. All I can say is I networked all I could and I still felt like that cat. Networking is important. But it isn't a guarantee. Even if you're persistent at it. You could be persistent at networking until the day you die and it could still never get you anywhere because there are no guarantees. So if we look back at our little cat, I think we can agree that its unlikely that he will be eternally persistent because that's just crazy. But its also crazy to then say he didn't get to the top because he wasn't persistent as if that's the only factor.
And that last sentence right there is my only issue with this whole deal. Everyone says that timing and luck are also important factors. And I agree with that. But that means there are going to be some folks who end up being that little cat running at the bottom of the slide and never getting anywhere. Its unlikely that they're going to be eternally persistent. And I for one think it is completely unfair to say they failed simply because, or only because, they were not persistent. That's my beef. If you don't agree with my opinion on that, you don't agree.