gotWXdagain
Polished Member
as described above. Make enough noise that the operation has to change. Aka fix the problem rather than run from it. Benefits everyone not just you.
CALL TO ACTION: Support a rewrite of Part 135 duty and rest rules
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as described above. Make enough noise that the operation has to change. Aka fix the problem rather than run from it. Benefits everyone not just you.
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm glad that worked for you. I think you'll find your success rate will go down drastically with each company you attempt that at. Like I said, I attempted that, and tried to bring other pilots along. Didn't work without support from other pilots. Should I have stayed then and continue breaking regs?
Glad it worked for you, but that's an outlier.
Glad it worked for you, but that's an outlier.
ScorpionStinger
Well-Known Member
FAA laws, rules and regulation are written and promulgated from the top down, but enforced bottom up. Pilots & mechanics are at the absolute bottom of the totem pole / pyramid.
Its important for all Pilots and Mechanics to understand that concept. The language of regulations protects both the FAA and Airlines/Industry Operators from being liable well before the pilot/mechanic.
This is why simple doesnt not work for them & they'll fight it. Real Change has to come from the BOTTOM UP. From pilots who have a backbone.
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This is a double edged sword though. It can get you labeled as a trouble maker, and put on a list. Which is why the regulations need a rewrite.
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
I hear you. I've said at the very least rest should be defined in the regs and that would eliminate a lot of the so called confusion on the issue, even though the FAA is crystal clear on its definition. You just have to dig beyond the regs.
In the meantime, we just all need to be trouble makers and get on that list. The fact remains that operators need pilots, and if we all put our foot down then they're left with little choice. This doesn't mean that you have to run, as I've apparently been accused of, but it does mean each company's pilot group has to be together on this. My experience, and history, shows that this is damn near impossible, as well as this thread shows. If I say a pilot should be held to the same level of responsibility as the operator to following the regs I'm labeled a backstabber. I think that's wrong.
In the meantime, we just all need to be trouble makers and get on that list. The fact remains that operators need pilots, and if we all put our foot down then they're left with little choice. This doesn't mean that you have to run, as I've apparently been accused of, but it does mean each company's pilot group has to be together on this. My experience, and history, shows that this is damn near impossible, as well as this thread shows. If I say a pilot should be held to the same level of responsibility as the operator to following the regs I'm labeled a backstabber. I think that's wrong.
ScorpionStinger
Well-Known Member
I value your passion on this issue. We need more pilots like you around vs those who sit on their butts, shout lable names easily, yet fail to offer ZERO solutions and input. Insteady they offer discouragement and status quo thinking. Ohh boy that annoys me deep down. So i for one hope you stay enouraged, and I support this.
Change is never easy, neither is trying to push a bloated Gov't bureaucracy known as the FAA to overhaul its old, complex, non-scientifically proven stinking far'ts on rest-rules.
I think we all should have a vested interest in also fighting the rest rule Night Cargo 121 operators are being exempted from following unlike their passenger carrying counterparts (FAR 117 rest rules).
Safety should be #1. Whether flying people or boxes... Were all in this together.
EDITED: To correct errors.
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CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
If it bleeds it leads, or will it cause delays at BOS, JFK, DFW, MDW... Those are the two reasons aviation hits mainstream news.
Television station producers shoot down feel good stories like angel flights or honor flights. They definitely won't run a story about private jet pilots getting tired or working long hours, even though charter is a much larger industry than just G650 passenger operations.
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
Update: My shop has adopted a "scheduled rest" schedule consistent with the FAA Counsel's legal interpretation.
Bamaaviator
Well-Known Member
Hearing stuff like this about the 135 side of the industry, as well as many sketchball 91 operators out there that like to violate FARS, just encourages me more and more to go 121 once I get the time. When I think about it I never really hear about 121 operators breaking rules so consistently. As a pilot finishing up my ratings I'm a very 'by the book' kinda guy. Almost too by the book. I never hear about 121 operators violating regs on a consistent basis, as least with the passenger ops. The more and more I research and ask about 135 jobs, the more eye opening it becomes and it just makes me wanna go 121. Less rule breaking, less sketchy maintenance practices, better rest rules, better company culture than 135, etc. I've spoken to a number of 135 pilots in person at fbo's and many of them flat out told me they wished they would have gone 121, and others are seriously thinking about it. Maybe it's a sign for me. I'm not about to spend thousands of my hard earned dollars to end up working as a 135 pilot in the future only to end up getting my certificates violated and possibly losing my career because some company says "you better take this trip or you'll be out of a job." I know that not all 135 outfits pull illegal crap, but from what I have gathered, it seems many of them do. Just doesn't seem worth it to me.
Fair enough. Just remember though, the 135/91 companies that you want to work for don't advertise their job openings. Network!
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
Wouldn't trade medevac for any other type of flying.
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
Pilots just don't wake up one day and say "I think I'll go work for Delta, American, United, etc..." The knowledge learned while researching each airline is what leads up to those decisions.
Think about the detailed questions you would ask about a 121 job. If you research 91/135 jobs to the level of detail, you'd know if it was a shady operation.
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SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Correct, pilots go to the first airline of these 3 that calls. To not do so is to lose out of seniority and money.
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
I dunno. With the medevac flying I did, I would trade it for any other type of flying. 24/7 on call 2 weeks on the road and on call for charter at home. No thank you.
z987k
Well-Known Member
So.... you didn't like the illegal flying you did? You don't say...
deadstick
Well-Known Member
Just like traditional 135 operstors, there are good ones and then the rest. There are definitely some air ambo companies that look more like a 1980's freight outfit than an professional air medical company.
averettpilot
Well-Known Member
Well, I only did one and then I quit, so....
Bamaaviator
Well-Known Member
Again, I know not all 135's do illegal stuff. I just don't want to take a chance jumping into 135 and getting backed into a corner because my boss says "you need to make it happen or you might as well go look for another job." All because I refused a broken aircraft, severely fatigued and absolutely can't fly, etc. I don't want to be out of a job and cause my son to starve because dad took a job at some 135 crap bag outfit as a pilot and got burned. There just seems to be too many unknowns in the 135/91 world. The jobs are so apples and oranges. I would assume many 135/91 pilots imagined it was going to be great going into it, but once they were hired and on the inside they discovered all sorts of terrible things about the company and the types of crap they pull like violating FAR's. Company x might play by all the rules, while company y likes to violate the rules even though both companies operate the same aircraft types. One company has terrible management, makes you pay for your types, the other treats you like gold and pays really good. Or, you have a good company that eventually goes bad. I've heard about that happening several times. The one thing that does lure me into 135 is medevac flying as the schedules at many of those places are pretty great from what I've heard. With 121 however, at least you know what you're gonna get going into it. You know what the pay at a particular airline is, it's no secret. You know if you're required to sign a training contract or not. You have a rough idea of how many days off you will get each month and that days off are DAYS OFF. You know if it's a stable/unstable airline, and you know that they generally play by the rules far more than 135/91 companies do. I guess I'm just afraid of going into 135/91 since there are too many unknowns and I'm the type of guy that really, I mean, really follows the rules.
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
Um, ah... Not sure how to tell you this but there are good 91/135 jobs with regards to schedule and shady operations. I work for a large 135 and we don't do anything shady. Questionable weather at the destination? We can decline the trip and the DO/CP is good with it. Duty and rest is clearly defined. I know my days off for the year. BBQ in September? I already know if I'll be home; my anniversary, I already know if I'll be home; the holidays, I already know if I'll be home.... See the trend there?
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