And look what's happened to Beech, err, Raytheon, or whoever owns them now.
C Series hits a.....snag
- Thread starter mshunter
- Start date
And look what's happened to Beech, err, Raytheon, or whoever owns them now.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
after the company offering the product failed, and was bailed out. By definition they mistimed and mispriced the aircraft.
(What happened to beech / ratheon / onex was trying to chase after the lear prop with a starship that had no market)
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Hey look, this thing is turning into a market discussion, not an engineering discussion. Many of us wonder if beech listened to their sales people and beat cessna to the citation market before cessna went from worst to first maybe there'd be no cessna. All beech engineers after the starship and learjet after the lesrfan became the grossly overpaid experts of boeing and every company before them on carbonfiber structures.
Lets stop sniping each other and put the blame where it belongs, on Rutan.
Lets stop sniping each other and put the blame where it belongs, on Rutan.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I have no doubt it is better designed than the 737 MAX.
It just hasn't taken off as it should have for it's superiority. I wonder why...
Seggy
Well-Known Member
You are missing the facts. The C Series has been extraordinarily slow to get the orders and aircraft to the customers compared to other aircraft programs, including the 787.
learhawkerbe400
Well-Known Member
Yea but no one has ever claimed its an engineering marvel!
jynxyjoe
Queso King
It's an all composite part 25 certified airliner... You're argument is that it's nothing is based off the control input?
I'm missing the obvious joke here right?
learhawkerbe400
Well-Known Member
I'm just a pilot idk what any of that means. I just know I won't be bidding it bc it doesn't have a tray table.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
There have been lots of airliners that size that never sold a ton. The Fokker 100, the BAC 111, The Convair 880, The HS121 Trident, the 717 with the only real successes being the DC-9. I'm sure if they went to a CS500 they'd get a lot more attention. It does make you wonder about the clout that Boeing and Airbus wield politically though. While everyone here bitches about how old the 737 is, is the C-Series all that more economical than the 737 MAX especially with the cost of fuel being what it is?
I do think Boeing's management has been regularly outclassed by Airbus and I was beyond frustrated with seeing Airbus run away with some huge orders for the NEO only for Boeing's biggest clients to finally get them to make a competitor to it. It's still amazing how badly they botched the development of the 787 and how bad of an idea all that outsourcing was and how much more it cost them to the tune of more than 10 billion dollars.
Bear
Well-Known Member
Several explanations include Boeing's attempt to emulate Airbus’s multi nation product development approach but did not understand it well enough to pull it off.
Boeing wanted 'strategic partners to bear part of the development costs, which many insiders warned against, as leading to poor fit between subsystems and, in the long term, loss of intellectual property and know-how.'
Perhaps the 'Beluga is a fitting symbol of the Airbus approach, a cargo plane specially designed to move aircraft modules between factories. For the 787, Boeing’s answer was the Dreamlifter, a 747 modified for the same purpose.'
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
The Beluga was a modified A300.
Was that the first, second or third time they were bought?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
The first time was raytheon if i remember right. About the same time or just after lear got sold to bombardier, or the birth of the challenger 600 which before that was an early project with lears name all over it. There i go talking about lear again.
Anyway, Olive, and her son had the "turtle wins the race" philosophy which lost them the jet market (however ironclad they held the turboprop market with the king air) and raytheon bought them before the days of merger mania and merger monday. Beech was a relic of the 60s which meant growth for growths sake was sacrificing the future for short term gains. When raytheon came in, it became clear their slow growth strategy turned them into a boutique instead of leading the race. Modern business caught them, and lets face it, everyone was playing catch up with Bill(there i go again). Raytheon bought in but it was clear the BOD was firmly with Olive and she continued to chase after the future, while sales experts were screamed down. Even if the starship finished on time and in budget the small biz jets swallowed the starship market.
Cessna is fairly well cemented and so is learjet and when beech lost Olive (who lets face it was probably always in charge of beech aircraft, her husband was just the puppet engineer, no offense walter) it was time for new ownership, leadership, money.
Onex did what they could but beech aircraft was a business dinosaur. It ended the company. We all would like the good guys to win, but they dont always. Beech made some good moves but now its an empty • coasting on business decisions from 40-60 years ago. The most amazing thing they did was the starship 2000, but there was no market for it and it sealed their fate.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Dude its like 12000 to one! I figured Delta hired more than one black pilot with GA stories.Says the "Hallway Stalker".
(Kidding, bro!)
Also derglas wanders aimlessly through halls. Its weird, it stand out, i passed by hoping no one thought i was trying to talk to him. Craaaazy. Like, yikes.
Oh, that look like the guy on the front part of the main website because we all look alike? KEEP DIGGIN!
(kidding!)
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
And United would be on the order books for the C-Series if Boeing hadn’t basically given them 737s for free to keep them from ordering Bombardier products. Talk about the heights of hypocracy on Boeing’s part.
Why do I get the feeling that had United ordered the C series, you’d be on the other side of this argument?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Eh, idk dude, you looked taller and........older? I keep forgetting how long ive been on this thing. Besides 12000 pilots and I run by you randomly while ur on a sit?Oh, that look like the guy on the front part of the main website because we all look alike? KEEP DIGGIN!
Besides, didn't you say once the old guys call you that internet nerd? How much would that be cemented when I was like, "yo I'm from the internets, I'm pretty sure that's you and I see ur all alone in this hallway so lets geek out quickly on BSG!"