Bullying in the cockpit

g4downin

Well-Known Member
I know many FOs, past or present, have good(or bad I suppose would be more appropriate) about a CA who treated you like absolute crap. Tell us your story. How did you handle it?


As an aside, It seems to me that there are a greater number of CAs like this than there should be. Moreover, It seems that the personalities follow a pattern. Many of these guys are non-standard, foul mouthed, entitled, and/or immature. Many automatically assume you share their prejudices. I haven't been at the airlines very long, but I can tell you that this is a real problem, not to mention a liability.
 
At the airlines it was easy. Once off probation you can tell the guy to stick it and it doesn't matter because you might not ever fly with him again (provided the domicile was large enough). There were mechanisms to "avoid" that individual during bidding etc. Worst case you could go through Professional Standards and, if enough FOs complain, they will address it with him.

Corporate, unfortunately, is very different. There is typically no mechanism to address this kind of situation. The only bright spot is that because there are fewer of you, you tend to learn one another's personality traits, and triggers and can get the job done safely (even if you wouldn't want to be buddies after the trip).

The ultimate solution is upgrading. Then you'll always get to fly with your favorite Captain. :)
 
I had a guy try to bully me in the simulator and luckily the instructor sensed the same thing as well.

So I just told him "I'm more than happy to pack my stuff and have you wait for a 'seat filler' to show up, but I'm finished with your aggressive, bitter attitude" and that solved it.

Basically a situation where the captain brought some issues to the simulator from battles that had been fought and lost by people much higher up the food chain and saw the simulator as his chance to rage against "the other side".

Some guys try to bully other crew members, unfortunately from what I've seen over the years, only respect those that are clear about not putting up with their crap. But, you've got to be able to step outside of the situation and make sure you're not the problem. Usually a quick "Homey don't play that" works for me.

I had another guy get angry with me when I notified him that maintenance was going to have us operate a unairworthy aircraft and he tried the old "I'm the captain, we're flying the jet to XYZ!"

"Hoooooooo, ok! Well, let me grab my stuff then and exit the aircraft"

About 30 seconds later, dispatch calls and says that maintenance was incorrect and that we could not dispatch the aircraft.

He bought me lots of beer and I got to preach about "Lucky you were that you were flying with an ass like me or you'd be filling out a NASA report, and prepping for your trip to the big brown table at HQ"
 
I know many FOs, past or present, have good(or bad I suppose would be more appropriate) about a CA who treated you like absolute crap. Tell us your story. How did you handle it?


As an aside, It seems to me that there are a greater number of CAs like this than there should be. Moreover, It seems that the personalities follow a pattern. Many of these guys are non-standard, foul mouthed, entitled, and/or immature. Many automatically assume you share their prejudices. I haven't been at the airlines very long, but I can tell you that this is a real problem, not to mention a liability.


It's not only just the guys in the left seat. Wait until you upgrade and you will see plenty of folks who try to run the show from the FO side. Nobody likes a "right seat captain". Like has already been said most are good folks and don't realize they're stepping on everybody's toes. Some are just jerks and definitely need to have a "come to Jesus" talk.
 
Guess it's a little off topic but I have had a few CFI's that have made it known that they are PIC and they know more than me. I guess I could have switched instructors, but whatever I got past it.
 
My worst experience in the flight deck was with a line cheek airman. Basically I was this guys personal punching bag for 3 days. It was miserable. The instruction and critique weren't necessarily bad but the delivery was awful and I consider myself pretty thick skinned and open to evaluation. The funny thing is that every subsequent ca I flew with found it necessary to buy me a beer when they asked me, "who did your OE?" The looks of sympathy were priceless.
 
I had a guy try to bully me in the simulator and luckily the instructor sensed the same thing as well.

So I just told him "I'm more than happy to pack my stuff and have you wait for a 'seat filler' to show up, but I'm finished with your aggressive, bitter attitude" and that solved it.

Basically a situation where the captain brought some issues to the simulator from battles that had been fought and lost by people much higher up the food chain and saw the simulator as his chance to rage against "the other side".

Some guys try to bully other crew members, unfortunately from what I've seen over the years, only respect those that are clear about not putting up with their crap. But, you've got to be able to step outside of the situation and make sure you're not the problem. Usually a quick "Homey don't play that" works for me.

I had another guy get angry with me when I notified him that maintenance was going to have us operate a unairworthy aircraft and he tried the old "I'm the captain, we're flying the jet to XYZ!"

"Hoooooooo, ok! Well, let me grab my stuff then and exit the aircraft"

About 30 seconds later, dispatch calls and says that maintenance was incorrect and that we could not dispatch the aircraft.

He bought me lots of beer and I got to preach about "Lucky you were that you were flying with an ass like me or you'd be filling out a NASA report, and prepping for your trip to the big brown table at HQ"

This is a good place to be, but let me say that it can take a while to get here. I'd certainly say in my first year I flew with a handful of guys who, looking back on it, have no business being in the left seat. From micro managers to plain out bags, I put up with things I should have in large part because I was on probation and partially, because I didn't know any better.

It takes seeing these guys a few times to get to a place where you can be confident enough to say, "You know what, you're wrong in what you're saying, and in how you're acting, and you can either change your attitude or I can get the hell out of here and then race you to the chiefs office, where were we can have a sit down about why this flight is cancelling."

Thankfully, I've flown with some awesome guys in the last year and that hasn't been an issue, but you're really putting yourself out there when you get to the point where you are ready to pull the plug on a flight.
 
Guess it's a little off topic but I have had a few CFI's that have made it known that they are PIC and they know more than me. I guess I could have switched instructors, but whatever I got past it.
I did a stage check once with a CFI who kept bragging about how he flies the Pilatus and what a badass he is for flying charters and how maybe 20 years down the road I might know everything he does(he was like 30). When I did anything wrong, I got to hear about when he was a student pilot he kicked ass at whatever I just screwed up on. Oh, and at the end of the lesson he charged me a "no show" fee for the 2 lessons I canceled with him(in advance even) because I was sick. When that story got around he lost a student or two, so it worked out I guess.
 
This is a good place to be, but let me say that it can take a while to get here. I'd certainly say in my first year I flew with a handful of guys who, looking back on it, have no business being in the left seat. From micro managers to plain out bags, I put up with things I should have in large part because I was on probation and partially, because I didn't know any better.

It takes seeing these guys a few times to get to a place where you can be confident enough to say, "You know what, you're wrong in what you're saying, and in how you're acting, and you can either change your attitude or I can get the hell out of here and then race you to the chiefs office, where were we can have a sit down about why this flight is cancelling."

In all honesty jtrain the challenge will present itself again. It'll be different the second time around because like you said you'll have a different depth of knowledge and experience to fall back on. The first go around when you're new to 121 there's a certain degree of ignorance is bliss. The second time around you've got a new airplane, a new airline, a new oprations manual, and a new culture to deal with. At times they'll get all jumbled up in your brain because as we all know the law of primacy can be tough to overcome. Probation, while really not a big deal, is a nagging voice sitting on your shoulder reminding you that maybe this isn't a fight worth having when something comes up....picking your battles. It was a challenge that I didn't really consider before hand. It RARELY was an issue but it did come up and like you, I bit my tongue on the non safety/reg stuff.
 
I had my share of some real shall we say "interesting" Captains in my younger days as a new puppy. Some that were very bitter, some that resisted the whole of idea of CRM, some with personal issues at home that they brought with them to the office, those with control issues, some with egos from hell, some that were just cantankerous and had no sense of humor, treated me as if I were some guy with no or little skills trying to earn a PPL, some who I questioned their skills and abilities, (even if mostly to myself - I spoke up no matter what rath I might incur if something was actually unsafe), you name it. Fortunately for myself and the rest of the crew, they were in the minority. Still it can make for some pretty miserable trips.

Once in a while you can turn the situation around by figuring out the best way to approach them (on a psychological/emotional level) and get them to see what they are doing, get to know them and they you and improve the situation. By the time you have arrive at a legacy carrier, (and this also applies really to Charter and Corp.ops, etc) you deserve to be treated with some respect and understanding. The Captain is there to be the final word (not without input IMO), to protect and support his crew and pax and to mentor and give the F/O more experiences and a wide variety of them. You want to have the crews back and you want them to have yours as well.

What I learned most of all from these unsavory Captains was invaluable to me in that it taught me what I did NOT want to be when I upgraded and what I did want to be. So I can actually look back and realize that even flying with a tyrant or a bully, has some merit in the end, if I learned even just that. If I was able to improve the situation and gain some understanding with him, so much the better. If not, I coped and tried to avoid his trips when possible.

Some guys sadly, never learn the difference between being a leader and being a dictator.

I am going to post this from a friend, because in so many ways it is true and how I always pretty much thought. I think you might all enjoy it. He wrote this several years ago, but it's still wise advice.


Thoughts on Captaining And Such





You are a captain because you are a survivor and because you have a seniority number that has a lower numerical value than the other pilots. You aren't a captain because you are smarter than the other pilots, better-looking than the other pilots or even because you have a better personality than the other pilots. Your brown-nosing-the-boss skills didn't get you the gig and your corporate-ladder-climbing strategies didn't get you in the left seat. You are only here because you are still alive and because your seniority score finally got you the job.


That being said, you have to agree that no matter how you got the job, the job feels pretty damn good. Finally, you get to fly your way. You have the chance to show off your leadership skills and to impress the aviation world with your skill, verve and talent for that pilot-in-command thing.


You'll find that people will pretend to be interested in what you are saying. Mechanics will consult with you about the condition of your aircraft. Flight attendants will complain to you, not your co-pilot, that catering hasn't come out to the aircraft yet. They will expect you to brief them on such matters as how long the flight is going to be and how bumpy the air is so they can plan their service. Even gate agents will want your autograph -- on the flight dispatch release form.


A word about that form is probably a good idea. It says that you, personally, are able to take the flight both mentally and physically and that you agree with the dispatcher's plans for the flight, including fuel. You will routinely sign off on this form before each and every leg, but always remember this: The form is your ticket to all your power. You and only you can decide if this puppy gets off the ground or not.


If you aren't sure it is going to be safe, and then you go fly the thing and then bend metal, it is your head they'll be after. You are literally the final word and the last link in airline safety. I know you only got here because you haven't managed to kill yourself in an airplane, yet, but it's your job to be the head guy, the big cheese, the ... well, you get the idea.


Try not to fixate all your energy on worries about legalities. To be sure, staying legal is a great way to continue a long, happy flying career and I have nothing at all against doing things by the book and following the rules.
Beware of being legal yet being unsafe. That is where a captain really earns his or her pay. One time a few years back during another cost-cutting frenzy at the airline, I went out to my trusty MD-88 ready to fly to our next stop. Then I noticed that it had 23 Maintenance Carry-Overs (MCOs). An MCO is something mechanically wrong with the airplane that they don't have to fix right away. Two or three MCOs is fairly common; 23 isn't. Yet 23 maintenance problems on one plane, under our current system, is still perfectly legal.


The problem was that a lot of the MCOs on that day had to do with stopping the airplane. Autospoilers, autobrakes, thrust reversers and auto throttles were just a few of our broken parts. We were headed to a wet, short runway.


We were legal but we sure as hell weren't going. If you work for a good company like I still think I do, they'll back up your decision. If you don't work for good people, you have to stand your ground anyway because, you know what? After you run off the end of a wet piece of concrete and hurt some people in a situation like that, nobody is going to fault the company, they are going to blame you, and quite rightly so.


Don't be afraid to make a decision even if it's going to be unpopular.
Okay, enough of the super-serious stuff. Here is a short list of good captain traits that you should memorize and pass along to your children and grandchildren.


Always help female flight attendants out of the hotel van. I know this is a brave, new, liberated world and we're all equal, but you aren't wearing high heels or at least I hope you're not.


Always buy the first round at layover dinners during the rare occasions you get to go out with your crew.
Never, ever let a new-hire pilot buy their own drinks. The airlines don't pay them enough to eat, so a free beer or cola will really be appreciated. Then, when they're captains, they can buy some drinks for their crews. It's paying it forward. It is the circle of life, Simba ...


Don't do walk-arounds unless your co-pilot is running late. Most pilots don't agree with me on this advice, and some captains like to ingratiate themselves by trying to be "one of the guys" and do the work of other crew members. I personally think you can do your crews a bigger service by being a good captain not by trying to be a mediocre co-pilot. If you are like me you spent at least 15 years walking around jets in the rain. Now it is your co-pilot's turn. It is that circle of life thing again.


Never repeat anything you hear from a co-pilot, flight attendant, or even a jump-seat rider outside the cockpit if it is personal. People will tell you things in the cockpit they don't really want outside of it. Co-pilots will talk about upcoming divorces and problem children. Think of the cockpit as a confessional booth and I think you'll do fine.


Always lead by doing. Don't make fun of how your co-pilot is dressed and then go around all day with your shirttail hanging out of the open fly of your uniform pants.


You have been around long enough that you can trust your feelings. If something doesn't feel safe, don't do it.

Nobody wants to look at pictures of your prostate operation.


Unfortunately, you'll have to act like you are interested in viewing pictures of the cats of Flight Attendants, as well as the baby pictures of their ankle biters. Be nice, because you never know when you'll be retired and non-revving to Maui and be in dire need of another bourbon. Never ever burn flight attendant bridges.


Always offer to fly the first leg of a trip so your co-pilot can lower his or her standards. Once they see how sloppy you fly, they can relax and begin to enjoy their trip.


Your crew's welfare is just as important as your passengers'. Make sure on layovers that everybody gets to their rooms unscathed. Buy some dinners, rent some cars, rub in some sunscreen -- be there for them.


That is about it. A good captain never stops learning and you've just started school. Good luck! K. Garrison
 
I'm glad (er, in retrospect) that I got some F/O time late(er) in my career. Because a few years ago, I'd have told you to stop snivelling and shut up. I now realize that Tyrannical (and worse, incompetent) Captains exist...they walk amongst us. They don't even have anything stamped on their forehead (we need to do something about that).

That said, I learned a lot from them. How to politely suggest that we're going to bend metal, how to make my idea seem to be THEIR idea, how to talk us out of getting violated because Big Chief flew right through a crossing restriction on the DP, etc etc etc.

The thing is, if you're going to fly as a part of a crew, sooner or later you're going to wind up flying with someone who doesn't know what they're doing, or is an unpleasant human being, or both. Learning to handle these things without flipping out or becoming hostile is a Life Skill, right up there with "push forward and the houses get bigger".
 
I did a stage check once with a CFI who kept bragging about how he flies the Pilatus and what a badass he is for flying charters and how maybe 20 years down the road I might know everything he does(he was like 30). When I did anything wrong, I got to hear about when he was a student pilot he kicked ass at whatever I just screwed up on. Oh, and at the end of the lesson he charged me a "no show" fee for the 2 lessons I canceled with him(in advance even) because I was sick. When that story got around he lost a student or two, so it worked out I guess.

Oh I'm sure you'll read about a pc-12 going gear up lmao. Save the pride, enjoy the ride.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
On the subject of "how to deal", I've found that "Captain, I'm sure it would work out but my Lesser Skills aren't comfortable with it" works wonders. There's no need to directly Challenge the C/A unless you're Seconds From Disaster (cue the theme music). For some guys, their Ego rides right on top of those four bars. Getting angry or suggesting that they're incompetent (or worse) does not help.

A side effect of this, however, is that when you're in the left seat and the other guy says "Uh, sir (bow, genuflect, etc) I'm not 100% comfortable with this", you begin to wonder whether you're a D-bag and no one has told you. :D

I mean. Cough. Obviously not true in my case, but...
 
Interesting that most of us have experienced this type of behavior....

I know the military is different because, while there is a similar "probationary period", I couldn't be fired. You do quickly get the reputation as a pilot that no one wants to fly with if you don't "take the lesson" from the dictator sitting next to you. My two (relavent) stories:

One month after graduation and my second flight with the unit, I was talking to my Crew Chief. It was obvious to me that he was either drunk or high. I told the Crew Chief that I wouldn't say anything as long as he excused himself from the flight and never showed up in this condition again. He acknowledged and walked off only to grab his gear and head to the helicopter. I told the PIC what had transpired and was told to "shut up and mind your own business". Not saying a thing, I walked to the aircraft and grabbed my gear. Walking across the flight line, I passed the PIC. I knew it was risky at the time but I told him, "My life IS my business, enjoy your flight. See you next week". And I left the area. We never talked about it again and I think he knew better than to bring it up to the Commander. A few days later the Crew Chief checked himself into rehab.

17 years later, after transitioning to fixed-wing, I had the "pleasure" (as it was explained in detail) to fly with a certain Master Aviator and Senior Officer. He was, by definition, a Tyrant. As we were ready to takeoff, I reminded him that the pitot heat was off. You would have thought that I just told him that his wife and I were dating! He commenced to verbally drag me the length of the cabin (and back). He told me that there was a "clear dividing line through the center console and never shall it be crossed". Later turning from downwind to base he asked for "gear down". I was lookng out the right window at the airport and didn't acknowledge. Closing on the airport...again, "GEAR DOWN!!". Nothing. "CAN YOU HEAR ME??" "Oh yeah, I hear you, but the gear handle is on your side".

At dinner I told him he couldn't have it both ways. He could fly single pilot or as a crew. Never had any issues with him after that.
 
It's not only just the guys in the left seat. Wait until you upgrade and you will see plenty of folks who try to run the show from the FO side. Nobody likes a "right seat captain". Like has already been said most are good folks and don't realize they're stepping on everybody's toes. Some are just jerks and definitely need to have a "come to Jesus" talk.

Quoted for truth...and I'm an F/O.
 
These bad attitude start with cfi... When they break rules to not lose their job then go to airlines and same happen. Then they think they are king until accident happen.

sent from tapatalk :-)
 
One thing I bump up against is the "company man" captain. The ones that won't write something up because they think the company actually thinks they are swell guys and will reward them handsomely for "moving airplanes." I discovered by accident of my "don't give a crap (apart from being safe) mentality" that if you refuse to fly the aircraft and tell the Captain to "just tell dispatch I'm the one refusing to go." they will write it up or refuse it themselves everytime. Why? Because they don't want to be asked later, especially if metal got bent, why were you willing to fly the plane but the F/O wasn't? Not that it would go that way because if you refuse to go you don't go, but the ego of the "company man" fails to rationalize this, thus problem solved...
 
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