Bullying in the cockpit

RightSeatGirl said:
One thing I bump up against is the "company man" captain. The ones that won't write something up because they think the company actually thinks they are swell guys and will reward them handsomely for "moving airplanes." I discovered by accident of my "don't give a crap (apart from being safe) mentality" that if you refuse to fly the aircraft and tell the Captain to "just tell dispatch I'm the one refusing to go." they will write it up or refuse it themselves everytime. Why? Because they don't want to be asked later, especially if metal got bent, why were you willing to fly the plane but the F/O wasn't? Not that it would go that way because if you refuse to go you don't go, but the ego of the "company man" fails to rationalize this, thus problem solved...
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It's the same thing in all aspects of the operation. I can't tell you how many times I've had a gate agent pushing us to get a plane out on time when there is stuff that still needs to be done (catering/lav/late passengers on the last flight of the night). As soon as you tell them to put the delay on you, they are more than happy to help out making sure everything gets taken care of.
 
If I may.... I haven't had the privilege of flying in the right seat of anything, yet, but... I have done a demo flight in the Corvallis... And... I did it with a guy who was in his first job as an Excel pilot. We departed and headed north and I got to listen to him talk about how much different it is to fly an Excel than a Corvalis and how blahbity blahbity blahbity Excel. Meanwhile, the guy was on my controls through the entire flight, to the point of me saying "Am I flying the plane, or are you? I just want some clarification..." We were flying along, and we hit a bump. I saw him get this really concerned look on his face and I asked him if he was alright... His reply

"I'm just not used to hitting bumps like that. We don't take bumps like that in the Excel, and when I land, it's my goal to not spill anyone's drink on the table."

And that... is a TRRRUUUUUE story.
 
I've only seen the 121 environment, but the longer you do this, the lower your tolerance for putting up with BS is. When you are new, you don't want to be "that guy" so you are more likely to put up with things you shouldn't have to.

When it comes to personal issues, I like to subtly slip something into the conversation that tactfully make it known that you're not cool with whatever they said earlier. Not in the cockpit, but a good example would be on another forum I used to belong to, there was this really racist and intolerant member. He would often speak out against Jews. So one might, I IMed him and said "hey man, I need some help and you're the only one online. I'm trying to pick out a new yarmulke but I'm torn between these two..." Thats a little more challenging to pull off in the cockpit, but watching them with their foot in their mouth is pretty entertaining.

If that doesn't work, it's the "I don't really want to talk about that, I'm just here to work" might shut them up.

When it comes to religion or politics, even if it's something I agree with, I just nod occasionally and turn the intercom down. I'm pretty good at just staring out the window and keeping myself entertained.

For work related stuff, my go to is "was taking that high speed at 80kts really worth risking our jobs? There's really no way to explain that away in the chief pilots office"

Thankfully I haven't had anyone who had bullied me personally. But I think raising the BS flag and threatening to walk out is a good last resort. My company has a guy on the 700 with a notorious temper. He has made many trips to the CPO because of it. Apparently all it takes to get him back in line is suggesting the two of you go to the CPO and discuss it further.

This is a good topic. Especially for new f/os. You wil be afraid to rock the boat. But eventually you will feel so strongly about something that happened that you will. Then you will figure out that as long as your intentions are good and you have tried everything you can, it really won't be a big deal. You are a valuable part of the crew, not just a checklist reader. Knowing how to keep the captain from doing something that will get you both in trouble (or worse) is very important. But as Dough said, making sure you aren't the one having the problem should be your first step.
 
A Life Aloft said:
I had my share of some real shall we say "interesting" Captains in my younger days as a new puppy. Some that were very bitter, some that resisted the whole of idea of CRM, some with personal issues at home that they brought with them to the office, those with control issues, some with egos from hell, some that were just cantankerous and had no sense of humor, treated me as if I were some guy with no or little skills trying to earn a PPL, some who I questioned their skills and abilities, (even if mostly to myself - I spoke up no matter what rath I might incur if something was actually unsafe), you name it. Fortunately for myself and the rest of the crew, they were in the minority. Still it can make for some pretty miserable trips.

Once in a while you can turn the situation around by figuring out the best way to approach them (on a psychological/emotional level) and get them to see what they are doing, get to know them and they you and improve the situation. By the time you have arrive at a legacy carrier, (and this also applies really to Charter and Corp.ops, etc) you deserve to be treated with some respect and understanding. The Captain is there to be the final word (not without input IMO), to protect and support his crew and pax and to mentor and give the F/O more experiences and a wide variety of them. You want to have the crews back and you want them to have yours as well.

What I learned most of all from these unsavory Captains was invaluable to me in that it taught me what I did NOT want to be when I upgraded and what I did want to be. So I can actually look back and realize that even flying with a tyrant or a bully, has some merit in the end, if I learned even just that. If I was able to improve the situation and gain some understanding with him, so much the better. If not, I coped and tried to avoid his trips when possible.

Some guys sadly, never learn the difference between being a leader and being a dictator.

I am going to post this from a friend, because in so many ways it is true and how I always pretty much thought. I think you might all enjoy it. He wrote this several years ago, but it's still wise advice.


Thoughts on Captaining And Such



​



You are a captain because you are a survivor and because you have a seniority number that has a lower numerical value than the other pilots. You aren't a captain because you are smarter than the other pilots, better-looking than the other pilots or even because you have a better personality than the other pilots. Your brown-nosing-the-boss skills didn't get you the gig and your corporate-ladder-climbing strategies didn't get you in the left seat. You are only here because you are still alive and because your seniority score finally got you the job.


That being said, you have to agree that no matter how you got the job, the job feels pretty damn good. Finally, you get to fly your way. You have the chance to show off your leadership skills and to impress the aviation world with your skill, verve and talent for that pilot-in-command thing.


You'll find that people will pretend to be interested in what you are saying. Mechanics will consult with you about the condition of your aircraft. Flight attendants will complain to you, not your co-pilot, that catering hasn't come out to the aircraft yet. They will expect you to brief them on such matters as how long the flight is going to be and how bumpy the air is so they can plan their service. Even gate agents will want your autograph -- on the flight dispatch release form.


A word about that form is probably a good idea. It says that you, personally, are able to take the flight both mentally and physically and that you agree with the dispatcher's plans for the flight, including fuel. You will routinely sign off on this form before each and every leg, but always remember this: The form is your ticket to all your power. You and only you can decide if this puppy gets off the ground or not.


If you aren't sure it is going to be safe, and then you go fly the thing and then bend metal, it is your head they'll be after. You are literally the final word and the last link in airline safety. I know you only got here because you haven't managed to kill yourself in an airplane, yet, but it's your job to be the head guy, the big cheese, the ... well, you get the idea.


Try not to fixate all your energy on worries about legalities. To be sure, staying legal is a great way to continue a long, happy flying career and I have nothing at all against doing things by the book and following the rules.
Beware of being legal yet being unsafe. That is where a captain really earns his or her pay. One time a few years back during another cost-cutting frenzy at the airline, I went out to my trusty MD-88 ready to fly to our next stop. Then I noticed that it had 23 Maintenance Carry-Overs (MCOs). An MCO is something mechanically wrong with the airplane that they don't have to fix right away. Two or three MCOs is fairly common; 23 isn't. Yet 23 maintenance problems on one plane, under our current system, is still perfectly legal.


The problem was that a lot of the MCOs on that day had to do with stopping the airplane. Autospoilers, autobrakes, thrust reversers and auto throttles were just a few of our broken parts. We were headed to a wet, short runway.


We were legal but we sure as hell weren't going. If you work for a good company like I still think I do, they'll back up your decision. If you don't work for good people, you have to stand your ground anyway because, you know what? After you run off the end of a wet piece of concrete and hurt some people in a situation like that, nobody is going to fault the company, they are going to blame you, and quite rightly so.


Don't be afraid to make a decision even if it's going to be unpopular.
Okay, enough of the super-serious stuff. Here is a short list of good captain traits that you should memorize and pass along to your children and grandchildren.


Always help female flight attendants out of the hotel van. I know this is a brave, new, liberated world and we're all equal, but you aren't wearing high heels or at least I hope you're not.


Always buy the first round at layover dinners during the rare occasions you get to go out with your crew.
Never, ever let a new-hire pilot buy their own drinks. The airlines don't pay them enough to eat, so a free beer or cola will really be appreciated. Then, when they're captains, they can buy some drinks for their crews. It's paying it forward. It is the circle of life, Simba ...


Don't do walk-arounds unless your co-pilot is running late. Most pilots don't agree with me on this advice, and some captains like to ingratiate themselves by trying to be "one of the guys" and do the work of other crew members. I personally think you can do your crews a bigger service by being a good captain not by trying to be a mediocre co-pilot. If you are like me you spent at least 15 years walking around jets in the rain. Now it is your co-pilot's turn. It is that circle of life thing again.


Never repeat anything you hear from a co-pilot, flight attendant, or even a jump-seat rider outside the cockpit if it is personal. People will tell you things in the cockpit they don't really want outside of it. Co-pilots will talk about upcoming divorces and problem children. Think of the cockpit as a confessional booth and I think you'll do fine.


Always lead by doing. Don't make fun of how your co-pilot is dressed and then go around all day with your shirttail hanging out of the open fly of your uniform pants.


You have been around long enough that you can trust your feelings. If something doesn't feel safe, don't do it.

Nobody wants to look at pictures of your prostate operation.


Unfortunately, you'll have to act like you are interested in viewing pictures of the cats of Flight Attendants, as well as the baby pictures of their ankle biters. Be nice, because you never know when you'll be retired and non-revving to Maui and be in dire need of another bourbon. Never ever burn flight attendant bridges.


Always offer to fly the first leg of a trip so your co-pilot can lower his or her standards. Once they see how sloppy you fly, they can relax and begin to enjoy their trip.


Your crew's welfare is just as important as your passengers'. Make sure on layovers that everybody gets to their rooms unscathed. Buy some dinners, rent some cars, rub in some sunscreen -- be there for them.


That is about it. A good captain never stops learning and you've just started school. Good luck! K. Garrison
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As a guy who is going to finally take my observation ride tomorrow and be put out on the line in the left seat for the first time at a 121 carrier this is an amazing thread. I really enjoy the read and an take a lot from this, I learn a lot from it and it reinforces things I thought I already knew. I appreciate it guys! And great timing.

I especially like this one Aloft.
 
Cav said:
In all honesty jtrain the challenge will present itself again. It'll be different the second time around because like you said you'll have a different depth of knowledge and experience to fall back on. The first go around when you're new to 121 there's a certain degree of ignorance is bliss. The second time around you've got a new airplane, a new airline, a new oprations manual, and a new culture to deal with. At times they'll get all jumbled up in your brain because as we all know the law of primacy can be tough to overcome. Probation, while really not a big deal, is a nagging voice sitting on your shoulder reminding you that maybe this isn't a fight worth having when something comes up....picking your battles. It was a challenge that I didn't really consider before hand. It RARELY was an issue but it did come up and like you, I bit my tongue on the non safety/reg stuff.
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This is incredibly true. I completely underestimated the challenge of "starting over" at a new operation. It definitely removes you from your comfort zone for a while.
 
Pilotforhire, Don't ever let any of the temporary b.s. (and believe me, it's all temporary) have any influence on your adventure. It is an adventure. You will learn so much more, experience so much, continue to grow as a man and as an aviator and reflect back later and can't believe how wonderful it can truly be. Attitude is everything. I was never bored. Not once. At the first hint, I thought, look where I am and look what I am doing. How marvelous! It's all in the perspective. The nerves will steady, you'll be able to relax more. Be the example and be the leader. Be calm, prepared and steady. Make the decisions to the very best of your ability. Trust your judgment and experience. Be the authority and willing to never compromise your safety or the safety of others, no matter what. Ever. Crap will happen with the aircraft, it always does. You'll handle it. You and your team. Know that and believe it. Always be open to input and put your crew at ease -make them a team-your team, let them know how valuable they are, and enjoy the very best view in the world. Nothing compares. Nothing. Joy in things small and large is always available for you if you are open to it. Don't surround yourself with negative a holes either or buy into their whining. I wish you the best of luck. Have fun and be proud of yourself, you have obviously worked hard to get there. Congratulations!!! I am excited for you! Takes me back and ignites my fondest memories. I remember my first days as a lowly rookie FE. I was so excited about having my own decent hotel room, a vehicle to get me there, a dinner on the Captain, the fact that someone was actually paying me to do what I had always dreamed of doing, all the new places that I would get to see and experience and all the little silly and yet wonderful things. P.S. Hand fly when you can/want to. lol
 
Doug Taylor said:
I had a guy try to bully me in the simulator and luckily the instructor sensed the same thing as well.

So I just told him "I'm more than happy to pack my stuff and have you wait for a 'seat filler' to show up, but I'm finished with your aggressive, bitter attitude" and that solved it.

Basically a situation where the captain brought some issues to the simulator from battles that had been fought and lost by people much higher up the food chain and saw the simulator as his chance to rage against "the other side".

Some guys try to bully other crew members, unfortunately from what I've seen over the years, only respect those that are clear about not putting up with their crap. But, you've got to be able to step outside of the situation and make sure you're not the problem. Usually a quick "Homey don't play that" works for me.

I had another guy get angry with me when I notified him that maintenance was going to have us operate a unairworthy aircraft and he tried the old "I'm the captain, we're flying the jet to XYZ!"

"Hoooooooo, ok! Well, let me grab my stuff then and exit the aircraft"

About 30 seconds later, dispatch calls and says that maintenance was incorrect and that we could not dispatch the aircraft.

He bought me lots of beer and I got to preach about "Lucky you were that you were flying with an ass like me or you'd be filling out a NASA report, and prepping for your trip to the big brown table at HQ"
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I've been in the room and seen that table! Apparently its a very expensive high tech table. Costs around 100k!
 
A Life Aloft said:
Pilotforhire, Don't ever let any of the temporary b.s. (and believe me, it's all temporary) have any influence on your adventure. It is an adventure. You will learn so much more, experience so much, continue to grow as a man and as an aviator and reflect back later and can't believe how wonderful it can truly be. Attitude is everything. I was never bored. Not once. At the first hint, I thought, look where I am and look what I am doing. How marvelous! It's all in the perspective. The nerves will steady, you'll be able to relax more. Be the example and be the leader. Be calm, prepared and steady. Make the decisions to the very best of your ability. Trust your judgment and experience. Be the authority and willing to never compromise your safety or the safety of others, no matter what. Ever. Crap will happen with the aircraft, it always does. You'll handle it. You and your team. Know that and believe it. Always be open to input and put your crew at ease -make them a team-your team, let them know how valuable they are, and enjoy the very best view in the world. Nothing compares. Nothing. Joy in things small and large is always available for you if you are open to it. Don't surround yourself with negative a holes either or buy into their whining. I wish you the best of luck. Have fun and be proud of yourself, you have obviously worked hard to get there. Congratulations!!! I am excited for you! Takes me back and ignites my fondest memories. I remember my first days as a lowly rookie FE. I was so excited about having my own decent hotel room, a vehicle to get me there, a dinner on the Captain, the fact that someone was actually paying me to do what I had always dreamed of doing, all the new places that I would get to see and experience and all the little silly and yet wonderful things. P.S. Hand fly when you can/want to. lol
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Thanks for all the advice man! The dash is a joy to handfly, let me know if you are ever in EWR, I would enjoy sitting down and talking to you over a beer and food
 
Not airline related, but the CFI I started my commercial ASEL training with was very rude and unprofessional with me in the cockpit on many occasions. Here's one example that comes to mind:

In the pattern when atc asked us to offset to the right when speed and altitude permitted so they could depart a jet ( I acknowledged). 20-30 feet off the ground he grabbed the controls (something he did alot to correct a bad maneuver, two people can't be flying the airplane at once), and put the plane in an agressive bank to the right. I grabbed them back and reminded him that I was flying the airplane and if he wanted to fly the plane, he would have to tell me he was taking the controls unless I was about to kill us (which I wasn't, I just wanted to get a little bit higher before I offset). Just one of very many examples of him being an ass in the cockpit.

Oh yeah, there was this one time he tried to get me to chandelle back up to altitude after doing eights on pylons at 5-600 AGL. No thanks:

Him: OK, lets chandelle back up to 8,000.
Me: OK, I'm going to continue climbing until we're 1500 AGL, then I'll begin my chandelles
Him: What do you think a chandelle is for?!
ME: To gain altitude
Him: Then DO IT!
Me: When we get more ground under us, the FAA doesn't want anything remotely acrobatic being done under 1500 AGL.
Him: MY GOD.


I feel like a traumatized red headed stepchild even though I no longer fly with him.
 
Its just crazy some of the guys I've flown with. Verbally abusive, attempting to re-write the FCM to their liking (since they are so much wiser than the folks at HQ), and downright inappropriate. Most of these behaviors wouldn't fly (pun intended) in any other professional work environment. These nameless CAs, if acting the same way elsewhere, could be the result of law suits and definite termination. In the confines of a cockpit these little men are able to exercise their petty power plays amongst hapless First Officers with almost complete immunity, especially to new hires on probation. This seems to be a liability, another link in the accident chain; sitting, waiting, and watching for the opportune time to snuff the lives of innocent people, to destroy company assets, and tarnish aviation safety.
 
We also have a captain, nice guy but will literally attempt to spend 8 1/2 hours providing flight instruction to you unless you shut him down.

Some of my favorite gems from him are:

"Well, let me show you the new procedure, it's not public yet but..." (however they never come to fruition)

"Here's my notes from the last line check airman meeting..." (nah, 99% company propaganda)

"Everyone does this wrong" (never mind the way the procedure is written, but yeah, 11,999 of us are wrong!)

I remember after a couple layover cocktails (the other FO ditched us) I just said, "You know, I have this recurring nightmare of you walking in on my wife and I having sex and you start giving me pointers"

Not that I have an aversion to tips or learning better, more efficient ways of getting my tasks completed, but hot damn, learn how to meter that crap out! :) I'm always willing to learn, but sometimes I want to read Wired or stare out the window at the Canadian tundra and be alone with my thoughts. Especially when you're trapped in the cockpit for hours and hours.
 
Don't know if you'd consider it bullying or not but one day I got JM to take a DTW-ORD turn. Upon arriving at the gate in DTW, I met up with a Captain I'd never flown with before. He didn't really seem to like smalltalk with either me or the FA's, but I thought nothing of it (maybe this was his day off?) and carried on with the usual preflight. While taxiing it was pretty common to ask about the below the line list to expedite things. So I said "Below the line?" And he proceeds to berate me about how when he wants a list ran he will ask for it the entire length of the taxiway. The second he is done being a jackass, he looks at me and calmly asks "Below the line please". Since it was my leg home, I was able to get the most thorough critique and quiz about the airplane I'd had. Ever. Why do you select XX on the VS? Whats this do? Whats that do? etc. I probably should have politely asked if this was a checkride or not, but kept quiet. We got to the gate, not speaking at all outside required items, I packed up in silence and walked off the airplane.

That was about it for me, I had some awesome CA's at Mesa. Especially in ORD.


This concludes post #1000.
 
Doug Taylor said:
We also have a captain, nice guy but will literally attempt to spend 8 1/2 hours providing flight instruction to you unless you shut him down.

Some of my favorite gems from him are:

"Well, let me show you the new procedure, it's not public yet but..." (however they never come to fruition)

"Here's my notes from the last line check airman meeting..." (nah, 99% company propaganda)

"Everyone does this wrong" (never mind the way the procedure is written, but yeah, 11,999 of us are wrong!)

I remember after a couple layover cocktails (the other FO ditched us) I just said, "You know, I have this recurring nightmare of you walking in on my wife and I having sex and you start giving me pointers"

Not that I have an aversion to tips or learning better, more efficient ways of getting my tasks completed, but hot damn, learn how to meter that crap out! :) I'm always willing to learn, but sometimes I want to read Wired or stare out the window at the Canadian tundra and be alone with my thoughts. Especially when you're trapped in the cockpit for hours and hours.
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Ahhh.... the joys of long haul flying! And people ask me why I like the short haul stuff. Even if I get paired with an someone like that, it's only for an hour or so, not 8+ hours.
 
dvtpilot said:
Don't know if you'd consider it bullying or not but one day I got JM to take a DTW-ORD turn. Upon arriving at the gate in DTW, I met up with a Captain I'd never flown with before. He didn't really seem to like smalltalk with either me or the FA's, but I thought nothing of it (maybe this was his day off?) and carried on with the usual preflight. While taxiing it was pretty common to ask about the below the line list to expedite things. So I said "Below the line?" And he proceeds to berate me about how when he wants a list ran he will ask for it the entire length of the taxiway. The second he is done being a jackass, he looks at me and calmly asks "Below the line please". Since it was my leg home, I was able to get the most thorough critique and quiz about the airplane I'd had. Ever. Why do you select XX on the VS? Whats this do? Whats that do? etc. I probably should have politely asked if this was a checkride or not, but kept quiet. We got to the gate, not speaking at all outside required items, I packed up in silence and walked off the airplane.

That was about it for me, I had some awesome CA's at Mesa. Especially in ORD.


This concludes post #1000.
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It seems the regionals are ripe with young, immature captains who like to throw their perceived authority around fellow crewmembers, yet are too much of a wuss to throw the same authority around when really needed.
 
Doug Taylor said:
We also have a captain, nice guy but will literally attempt to spend 8 1/2 hours providing flight instruction to you unless you shut him down.

Some of my favorite gems from him are:

"Well, let me show you the new procedure, it's not public yet but..." (however they never come to fruition)

"Here's my notes from the last line check airman meeting..." (nah, 99% company propaganda)

"Everyone does this wrong" (never mind the way the procedure is written, but yeah, 11,999 of us are wrong!)

I remember after a couple layover cocktails (the other FO ditched us) I just said, "You know, I have this recurring nightmare of you walking in on my wife and I having sex and you start giving me pointers"

Not that I have an aversion to tips or learning better, more efficient ways of getting my tasks completed, but hot damn, learn how to meter that crap out! :) I'm always willing to learn, but sometimes I want to read Wired or stare out the window at the Canadian tundra and be alone with my thoughts. Especially when you're trapped in the cockpit for hours and hours.
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Or micromanaging...that drives me nuts "Ok...give ground a call"

"Thanks...4 years and I still have problems with that"
 
dvtpilot said:
Don't know if you'd consider it bullying or not but one day I got JM to take a DTW-ORD turn. Upon arriving at the gate in DTW, I met up with a Captain I'd never flown with before. He didn't really seem to like smalltalk with either me or the FA's, but I thought nothing of it (maybe this was his day off?) and carried on with the usual preflight. While taxiing it was pretty common to ask about the below the line list to expedite things. So I said "Below the line?" And he proceeds to berate me about how when he wants a list ran he will ask for it the entire length of the taxiway. The second he is done being a jackass, he looks at me and calmly asks "Below the line please". Since it was my leg home, I was able to get the most thorough critique and quiz about the airplane I'd had. Ever. Why do you select XX on the VS? Whats this do? Whats that do? etc. I probably should have politely asked if this was a checkride or not, but kept quiet. We got to the gate, not speaking at all outside required items, I packed up in silence and walked off the airplane. That was about it for me, I had some awesome CA's at Mesa. Especially in ORD.This concludes post #1000.
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Sidetrack. What's below the line mean? I only hear one airline say it before pushback.
 
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