Breaking the "elevator for altitude" habit

Poser: Could be the case, not sure. :confused:

http://www.cpaviation.com/cfis.html

Do you get what mshunter stands for now < redacted >!

Now shut up, sit down and listen. Go read some more books, mr expert. I have never in this thread argued with anything you said as being false. I told you to listen up and not be a prick about things. And you have managed to blow this to proportions higher than the moon. With an attitude like yours, you are going to nothing for yourself but create enemies in this field. Listen to what others have to say sometimes, and don't consider yourself always right. My pass record (100%) should speak for itself. I am a damn good CFI, and I don't need some book reading kid telling me I have no clue of what I am doing, or that I don't understand what I am teaching. It's called being humble, why don't you try it out.
 
Do you get what mshunter stands for now u <removed bad words to save steve the trouble>!

What are you even talking about? Who cares what mshunter stands for, I sure don't and I didn't see anyone here asking.


mshunter said:
I have never in this thread argued with anything you said as being false.

mshunter said:
After talking to him about some of your "thoughts," lets just say all he could say was "blasphemy."

Blasphemy: it is also sometimes defined as language expressing disapproved beliefs, or disbelief.

No you just said someone else who you spoke with disagreed which I would imply you disagree as well and agree with him. Well I call BS on that considering his book agrees 100 percent with what was said here as I already posted,

EMT Page 40 Chapter 4 by Rich Stowell, " Since elevator controls angle of attack, and changes in angle of attack are accompanied by changes in airsspeed, the elvator MUST control airspeed." Also, "Power gives us control over our altitude profile. It provides a range of profiles not inherently available to the glider pilot."



Sure you didn't argue it you just claimed someone else did...
 
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PS I don't mean the formula, but the components of it and how they interact with each other. Who cares if you can plug in the numbers and make it all work, that is for the engineers, but the concepts behind it should be clearly understood by every instructor IMO.
This, sir is exactly what I was trying to say in my convoluted way.
 
Had a big paragraph written out about how rediculous it is to think you need a aerospace engineering degree to teach prople how to fly, but erased it cause it is pointless to agrue with some people on here....
 
You know, i probably shoudn't get into hot debates. Seems like all I end up doing is trying to explain what I MEANT to say 400 posts back.
 
Just remember: You could have an amazing level of knowledge in the physics and math that goes into aerodynamics, but when the chips are down, the only thing that matters is if you're worth a damn in the cockpit. I'd recommend working on that instead of worrying about equations.
 
First let me say this, when I started this post I had absolutely no intention of it turning into an argument pertaining to basic physical law. The intention was to hear from some of you guys different practical ways to try and teach away this habit. I knew the academics behind it coming into this thread and wasn't looking to discuss that.

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It just wouldn't be a good thread in the CFI forum if it didn't go to hell fast!

:D
 
First let me say this, when I started this post I had absolutely no intention of it turning into an argument pertaining to basic physical law. The intention was to hear from some of you guys different practical ways to try and teach away this habit. I knew the academics behind it coming into this thread and wasn't looking to discuss that.

This is why early on I mentioned trying a constant pitch approach to solidify that power really can get you altitude even on short final. I also spoke of flying the flare so they could get behind the power curve low to the ground and still have the knowledge and instincts to shove the nose forward and increase power to avoid touchdown. My hope was that people would expand upon this and give some other ideas relating to this, more experiments since that is really all they are to a student.

IMO you need an academic understanding of this only for the purpose of making yourself do it the first few times. I personally don't teach my students to understand all the academics behind it, that would be ridiculous, I explain them once or twice before the flight(s) where we focus on demonstrate them. Once you actually see it work in the real world I believe it helps to solidify the knowledge discussed on the ground. Much like a science experiment, discuss how and why it works, and then do some practical experiments to prove it. It is these experiments that I was hoping to get more insight on.

I am in 100% agreement with you about the physics involved. I also agree teachers need to understand these things.

The point I was trying to make is that an instructor can teach these concepts correctly and still have a pilot react incorrectly. My guy who busted his checkride absolutely understands these principles, but he still went out and did everything wrong. For one reason or another, I need to teach him using a different method than what works for 95% of my other customers. Now the challenge is finding what will work for him.

On another note, you speak of teaching experience as if the only kind of teaching is related to airplanes. I spent many years teaching juggling, skiing, and various other basic sports to special education kids. I was a swim instructor giving private and group lessons for almost 10 years. In college I had a class designed for me and worked one on one with a teacher of 40+ years on teaching habits, psychology behind teaching, and practical application by assisting her in her college algebra class. Now I am a flight instructor.

Does this make me the best teacher ever, of course not, but I understood long ago that while there is no one way to teach everyone (which I discussed earlier with multiple intelligence's and such), there are right ways to teach things and wrong ways. I also know that you have to break everything down piece by piece and try to put it together in a correct and organized fashion if you have any expectation of getting it across to your student. To do this requires a teacher to have an impeccable knowledge of what they are teaching in this case physical law for the academic side.

If any procedure we teach can be wrong at any time in any phase of flight than you are doing exactly what the FOI discusses heavily, a negative transfer of learning. In the case in question teaching anything other than pitch for airspeed power for altitude is nothing more than a negative transfer of learning. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_learning

I'm sure you're a good teacher, but flying is very different from juggling, skiing, or swimming. Flight training deals with how people react when under pressures much greater than those other activities. That's why it's less predictable. That's why I said you need more experience teaching in this area, because the longer you do it the more you'll see that academic understanding is a very important, but also relatively small part of making a good pilot.

I understand what you're saying about negative transfer of learning, which is why I don't teach *either* pitch for airspeed or pitch for altitude.

"Pitch for airspeed" is the technically correct, academic answer. I know and understand that. However, as Deakin's column clearly expressed, that's not the intuitive answer. It's not the answer that fits the practical application at all times. In most scenarios, the pilot needs to adjust both simultaneously.

PS Jrh would you mind giving the constant pitch approach and flying the flare a shot and report back and let me know how it works? Also whatever else you do, as I stated before this is the purpose of this threat or at least was supposed to be, to get him to understand this concept? Thanks in advance.

Here's how I teach private pilots to stay out of trouble and it's worked quite well for the most part:

During normal approaches, I give one simple guideline--don't raise the nose until you're ready to flare. If the pilot starts getting low and begins to raise the nose, trying to "stretch" for the runway, I quickly say, "No, no, keep the nose aimed down at the runway, just give it a bit of power to slow the descent and reach the runway."

Is this the technically correct academic answer? I don't know if it meets your standards, but it's the real world, practical way of building good habits and keeping them out of trouble.

When it comes to engine failure scenarios, I give one rule--you should never hear the stall horn until you're flaring. If you hear the stall horn, no matter what else is happening, release some backpressure from the yoke. I make them associate the stall horn with releasing backpressure.

Again, I'm not sure if this is academic enough for you, but it's what is safe and works, all the time. There is never a conflict in another segment of flight that contradicts these reactions. No negative transfer of learning.
 
jrh said:
"Pitch for airspeed" is the technically correct, academic answer. I know and understand that. However, as Deakin's column clearly expressed, that's not the intuitive answer.

Whether or not that's intuitive is irrelevant...the job of the instructor is to train the intuition, not to accept the intuition that exists. The intuition needs to conform to physical reality and with relentless pressure from the instructor, it can and will. If you offer them any escape route to avoid this difficult paradigm shift, a student will take it, because it's mentally less demanding. Any wishy-washiness on the part of the instructor will be detected by the student and he'll realize, consciously or unconsciously, that he can win the battle by ignoring it. Children and dogs do the same thing. ;)

And as a side note, "pitch for airspeed" is not technically correct; it's AoA for airspeed. Using the word "pitch" just perpetuates a false understanding of the discussion, as Deakin also clearly demonstrates. He has an ignorant point of view because he doesn't understand the words.

Lastly, it's unfair to accuse shdw that his views are due to inexperience. The same charge could be leveled at you, with the added crime of youth. You need to debate ideas on their own merits and allow other participants to decide whether or not age and experience add any credibility to the point of view.
 
Flight training deals with how people react when under pressures much greater than those other activities.

Irrelevant in regards to teaching IMO because if the concepts were taught properly pressure or not the reaction should be the same. If anything realizing that we operate in what can be a high pressure environment only further solidifies that the teachings need to be as perfect and correct as possible the first time and reenforced till it becomes habitual/instinctual. The human brain will still perceive new information in the same manner whether it be teaching the use of chop sticks, how to walk, potty training, or flying an airplane.


During normal approaches, I give one simple guideline--don't raise the nose until you're ready to flare. If the pilot starts getting low and begins to raise the nose, trying to "stretch" for the runway, I quickly say, "No, no, keep the nose aimed down at the runway, just give it a bit of power to slow the descent and reach the runway."

Thanks for this and the remaining portion of your post it has what I have been asking the whole time. The only difference between me and you here is for early on students I put my hand in front of the yoke and don't let them pull. I make them use power which when applied requires forward pressure and you don't see the immediate climb initially like you do with pitch but if your patient it happens, like many other aspects of flight, a positive transfer of learning. My hope is that proves something to them more than just "no no no" which they are likely ignoring anyway from the high stress environment low to the ground.

As soon as they pitch back and see the climb it is a negative transfer of learning IMO which is why I do that.


When it comes to engine failure scenarios, I give one rule--you should never hear the stall horn until you're flaring.

I like the idea and think I will have to give this one a try. I question whether it will work in an emergency only because people land gear up with the gear warning blaring the whole time because they are distracted. But all in all I doubt it could hurt and it just sounds like a good backup/added protection.
 
I think what everyone is missing is this...

Dude, Seriously??? You tought juggling? How the heck does one get into that field. Is there a demand for that? And also one cheap shot for the road...

Man, I bet you really know how to handle balls. ;)
 
Irrelevant in regards to teaching IMO because if the concepts were taught properly pressure or not the reaction should be the same. If anything realizing that we operate in what can be a high pressure environment only further solidifies that the teachings need to be as perfect and correct as possible the first time and reenforced till it becomes habitual/instinctual. The human brain will still perceive new information in the same manner whether it be teaching the use of chop sticks, how to walk, potty training, or flying an airplane.




Thanks for this and the remaining portion of your post it has what I have been asking the whole time. The only difference between me and you here is for early on students I put my hand in front of the yoke and don't let them pull. I make them use power which when applied requires forward pressure and you don't see the immediate climb initially like you do with pitch but if your patient it happens, like many other aspects of flight, a positive transfer of learning. My hope is that proves something to them more than just "no no no" which they are likely ignoring anyway from the high stress environment low to the ground.

As soon as they pitch back and see the climb it is a negative transfer of learning IMO which is why I do that.




I like the idea and think I will have to give this one a try. I question whether it will work in an emergency only because people land gear up with the gear warning blaring the whole time because they are distracted. But all in all I doubt it could hurt and it just sounds like a good backup/added protection.

How much time do you have shdw?
 
How much time do you have shdw?

About 300 dual given around 500 total as stated repeatedly in many other posts. Refer to tgrays post in regards to relevance of time and my post earlier in regards to teaching is teaching whether it be airplanes or anything else.

Over the past 9 months on top of those 300 hours I have read through nearly a dozen books in regards to basic flying. I have been here religiously, discussing, sometimes right sometimes wrong various aspects of flying. I have reread through all my notes and journal entries from psychology behind teaching that I worked with a professor at my school on and reread the FOI, twice. Finally I have put down everything I think is needed to teach a private pilot into 150 pages of outlines and am half way through one revision continually changing and revising my ideas and thoughts based on research and experiences.

So while I have spent only 300 hours in the air I spent, for the last 6 months since course writing, about 30 hours a week analyzing how I teach, what I am teaching, and what the goals and outcomes of each are. Much of my opinion on here stems from opinions out of books written to help further the knowledge of a private pilot as that is currently the type of student I teach.

Again it doesn't make me perfect or the best instructor, but to base what someone knows on the amount of hours they spend in the right seat assuming that is the only way one can learn about teaching is a bit of a stretch. Especially since most CFIs won't go much over 1,000 DG which puts me nearly 30 percent of the experience of an average pilot with regards to teaching.


I refuse to be a puppet in the world of aviation following tried and true methods accepted by the majority of pilots and often criticized by the teaching community just because the time builders did it that way. Some of it works, much of it is rooted in the 100 year old ideas like: "sink or swim," "its an airplane just fly it," or "there is no one way" methods. Instead I will analyze and research each individual lesson goal till I find what works. I plan on this being my career but even if it isn't I will put as much effort as I can into fully understanding what I am doing while I am here. Obviously my ideas are not without merret considering, from June 2009 "Over the Airwaves",

The time has come to get serious about the many inherent weaknesses in our flight training industry. To this end, U.S. Representative Chris Lee, R-Clarence, NY along with Representative Louis Slaughter, R-Rochester, NY, and Representative Brian Higgins, D-Buffalo, NY have recently introduced an amendment to the FAA Reauthorization Bill directing that the GAO conduct a study of the flight training industry and airline pilot hiring practices.
 
Over the past 9 months on top of those 300 hours I have read through nearly a dozen books in regards to basic flying. I have been here religiously, discussing, sometimes right sometimes wrong various aspects of flying. I have reread through all my notes and journal entries from psychology behind teaching that I worked with a professor at my school on and reread the FOI, twice. Finally I have put down everything I think is needed to teach a private pilot into 150 pages of outlines and am half way through one revision continually changing and revising my ideas and thoughts based on research and experiences.

you reread the FOI, twice. WOW :clap:That is dedication as I only read the cliff notes. :sarcasm:

I think you are very academic with how you process information and that is a very good quality that I think more people should strive to have. Please understand though that aviation in a skill and is physical (muscle memory, eye/hand coordination) just as much as it is academic. Some people can just do it and don't need to understand the physics behind what is happening. Think of basketball players... can they explain the physics of how the ball's trajectory sends the ball toward the basket and then back it up with a math formula? In your mind that is wrong and dangerous and that is ok to think this but on the other hand, some people's brains operate differently and can safely fly an airplane based on experience and proper training. I would hope you could appreciate this. I personally am in the middle on this, you need the academics (to a point) but what a student really needs is the real world experience that they can't learn from a textbook or math formula.
 
How much time do you have shdw?

Well here I thought you were talking about "free" time.

Dude has some mondo replies.

It just wouldn't be a good thread in the CFI forum if it didn't go to hell fast!

:D

You know I still don't think I've seen a thread in the CFI Corner locked yet. :beer: :clap:

But yes, if we get more than two pages into a thread...you can be sure that somebody somewhere is wrong.
 
I would hope you could appreciate this. I personally am in the middle on this, you need the academics (to a point) but what a student really needs is the real world experience that they can't learn from a textbook or math formula.

Just to be clear, I have been referring to instructors needing a real good handle on academic knowledge to be able to teach it. As for students i think its just about a 50/50 split with good academics supported by controlled experiments to give good experiences.

This reply was short Douglas!!! :)
 
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