Breaking the "elevator for altitude" habit

......face palm......


Lets look at what was posted, rather than what you would like to read.

"I don't need some rediclous math calculation to understand how AOA/Lift/Drag corrilate. I need a thoruogh understand of aerodynamic concepts, and a practical knowledge of how to apply it."

If your arguing this you have no clue about a basic aerodynamic concepts much less a thorough understanding.

The basis of the entire concept lies in the lift formula which you blatantly said you didn't understand. Now your going to sit and argue that you don't need to get it because it doesn't matter? Wow, *speechless*.

Not to be a copy cat here or anything, but if you actually took a moment to read and try and understand what was said many posts ago in regards to this you might actually learn something. Instead you will sit here and continue to argue concepts proven by (repeat) some of the most brilliant minds in human history just because you can't understand them.


BTW, I work with Rich Stowell, whom you like to quote so often. I have had many long talks with him trying to grasp just some of his knowledge. I am a flight instructor at the school he developed the EMT course for. After talking to him about some of your "thoughts," lets just say all he could say was "blasphemy."

EMT Page 40 Chapter 4 by Rich Stowell, " Since elevator controls angle of attack, and changes in angle of attack are accompanied by changes in airsspeed, the elvator MUST control airspeed." Also, "Power gives us control over our altitude profile. It provides a range of profiles not inherently available to the glider pilot."

So ms how does your foot taste? Ask Rich, since you know him so well, about those quotes which agree 150 percent with what me and tgray have ben arguing this entire time.

Poser: Could be the case, not sure. :confused:
 
Sort of like a post a made a while ago asking how much system knowledge we should have. Is it relevant to know what a speeder spring does in a constant speed prop or is just theory? Am I just as safe a pilot if i know that it is controlled by oil pressure?
 
From an outsider reading this and a non pilot, for what it is worth "i would tell him to stop arguing with me and use his time more wisely to understand his trade to the fullest extent as to try and avoid becoming another puppet in a mundane industry in which people feel no need to do their own research and avoid accidents that can be attributed to nothing more than pilot error."
 
Sort of like a post a made a while ago asking how much system knowledge we should have. Is it relevant to know what a speeder spring does in a constant speed prop or is just theory? Am I just as safe a pilot if i know that it is controlled by oil pressure?

Very true, I came out on knowledge of the mechanical minutiae, and perhaps that isn't necessarily the right way to go, provided a safe and competent pilot comes out in the end, who understands that if a then b, if b then c so if a then c. Which is all typically judgment anyway.
 
Sort of like a post a made a while ago asking how much system knowledge we should have. Is it relevant to know what a speeder spring does in a constant speed prop or is just theory? Am I just as safe a pilot if i know that it is controlled by oil pressure?

HAHAHA well I would agree knowing a speeder spring certainly won't make you a better pilot, but knowing the physical law behind the environment you fly in, that I think is another story. Hey maybe I am just crazy though right? :)
 
From an outsider reading this and a non pilot, for what it is worth "i would tell him to stop arguing with me and use his time more wisely to understand his trade to the fullest extent as to try and avoid becoming another puppet in a mundane industry in which people feel no need to do their own research and avoid accidents that can be attributed to nothing more than pilot error."

The vast majority of accidents are pilot error.
 
HAHAHA well I would agree knowing a speeder spring certainly won't make you a better pilot, but knowing the physical law behind the environment you fly in, that I think is another story. Hey maybe I am just crazy though right? :)
Meh, broad strokes in the argument of theoretical and practical. I got a friend who is dead set that EVERY pilot should know what an impulse coupler does. I could care less.

Sort of works for Aerodynamics. How shallow is not enough and how deep is to deep? Different strokes for different folks.
 
The vast majority of accidents are pilot error.

75 percent yes, what a shame.

Meh, broad strokes in the argument of theoretical and practical. I got a friend who is dead set that EVERY pilot should know what an impulse coupler does. I could care less.

Sort of works for Aerodynamics. How shallow is not enough and how deep is to deep? Different strokes for different folks.

What the heck is an impulse coupler? Dammit I would fail his test. :(

Sorry though I don't think you can put aerodynamics in the same category as aerodynamics are essentially another form of federal regulations. The only difference is if you break a FAR you can a slap on the wrist, if you break an aerodynamic rule you might find yourself in a pine box.
 
I can't believe I'm writing another post here. I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked back in to this thread...

I don't like much of anything that's being written lately. Here are my thoughts:

Shdw, you need more experience with teaching. You have a good technical understanding of these subjects, but teaching isn't always a clean cut, black and white business. The methods and explanations you use for one pilot might work great, only to fail with another pilot. So many variables come in to play. I've been teaching for nearly 5 years and 1500 flight hours and I still can't figure out how to train a perfect pilot. I doubt I ever will.

Want to hear a story that applies to this exact discussion? A couple weeks ago I had a student bust a private pilot checkride. One of the issues was that the examiner did a simulated engine failure at 400 AGL on climbout. My guy did everything wrong...had the stall warning horn going off as he mushed his way in to a turn for a field at a 90 degree angle to the runway. In training he had always done fine...lower the nose, go straight ahead, simple as that. He also had an excellent academic understanding of stalls and emergency procedures, better than most private pilots for sure. We've had many discussions about momentum, AoA, airspeed, pitch, power, and all the other buzzwords from this thread.

What went wrong? I don't know. I'm glad he failed the checkride because I'd rather retrain him now than hear about him dying in a stall/spin accident later, but the fact remains, something about the way I trained him the first time around wasn't good enough. People are hard to predict. The more you teach the more you'll see there is no magic bullet to make students get it right, first try, every time. Having rock solid academic knowledge of what you're teaching isn't good enough.



As for mshunter...the lift equation doesn't matter? There are plenty of good pilots who don't know the equation, but to call it ridiculous and say it doesn't matter is over the top. There are so many real world questions that can be directly answered using the equation. I can't imagine teaching without at least a conceptual knowledge of the equation.



And ppragman....I keep reading your posts about how there is no right and wrong in flying, as though flying is some new-age religion where everything is relative and we're all gods or something. I agree there are a lot of gray areas, but there certainly are "best" ways next to "all the others," too. If there wasn't an optimal way to get the job done, there'd be no point in training. On the first day of private pilot training we ought to just toss the trainee the keys, tell them the checklist is on the front seat, and hope they figure everything out.



And you all know what this thread has reminded me of more than anything else? First, we all think we're the best. I think I'm the best flight instructor here. I know that's probably not the case, but deep down inside, that's how I feel when I'm writing my posts, and I suspect it's the same for all of you.

But more importantly, this thread reminded me of that saying about opinions...opinions are like...well, nevermind. The punch line is, "we all have them, and they aren't worth much."
 
Shdw, you need more experience with teaching. You have a good technical understanding of these subjects, but teaching isn't always a clean cut, black and white business. The methods and explanations you use for one pilot might work great, only to fail with another pilot. So many variables come in to play. I've been teaching for nearly 5 years and 1500 flight hours and I still can't figure out how to train a perfect pilot. I doubt I ever will.

There are no black and white's and no absolutes in aviation. Hell, even controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) doesn't have a 100% probability of kill (pK), people still survive them. Things DO depend oftentimes.......depend on many factors. Remember this people, because its true.

Want to hear a story that applies to this exact discussion? A couple weeks ago I had a student bust a private pilot checkride. One of the issues was that the examiner did a simulated engine failure at 400 AGL on climbout. My guy did everything wrong...had the stall warning horn going off as he mushed his way in to a turn for a field at a 90 degree angle to the runway. In training he had always done fine...lower the nose, go straight ahead, simple as that. He also had an excellent academic understanding of stalls and emergency procedures, better than most private pilots for sure. We've had many discussions about momentum, AoA, airspeed, pitch, power, and all the other buzzwords from this thread.

What went wrong? I don't know. I'm glad he failed the checkride because I'd rather retrain him now than hear about him dying in a stall/spin accident later, but the fact remains, something about the way I trained him the first time around wasn't good enough. People are hard to predict. The more you teach the more you'll see there is no magic bullet to make students get it right, first try, every time. Having rock solid academic knowledge of what you're teaching isn't good enough.

Could've been that, or could've been something as simple as a bad day or stress. Fully agree with the bolded part. Book knowledge only and little practical knowledge isn't good, neither is the other way around. There has to be a good balance.

As for mshunter...the lift equation doesn't matter? There are plenty of good pilots who don't know the equation, but to call it ridiculous and say it doesn't matter is over the top. There are so many real world questions that can be directly answered using the equation. I can't imagine teaching without at least a conceptual knowledge of the equation.

Good to know stuff. I wouldn't kill myself knowing the nitnoids of it inside and out, but a good working knowledge never hurts. What I frown upon are people who pull out the in-depth book knowledge to students, etc, in an attempt to prove how smart they are. I've seen that first hand with some guys, and just shake my head at it.

And ppragman....I keep reading your posts about how there is no right and wrong in flying, as though flying is some new-age religion where everything is relative and we're all gods or something. I agree there are a lot of gray areas, but there certainly are "best" ways next to "all the others," too. If there wasn't an optimal way to get the job done, there'd be no point in training. On the first day of private pilot training we ought to just toss the trainee the keys, tell them the checklist is on the front seat, and hope they figure everything out.

Remember though, there are many different ways to accomplish the same thing....called techniques. Some are more efficient etc than others, but oftentimes there are a good number of ways to do something that are equally good......kind of a tomato/to-ma-to kind of thing. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that your techniques should be or somehow are, procedures (generally speaking to all).

Everything I'm saying comes from many years of experience in aviation doing any number of different things. Remember, it depends.

And as an aside, it IS poor form to tell someone how to fly their plane when you don't fly it yourself and have zero experience in it. It smacks of arrogance, which has little place in aviation. I don't care how much book theory one has, I don't go around telling a 747 guy how to fly his jet anymore than I tell an F-15 pilot how to fly his; especially if my only experience was light GA flying. Its incredibly presumptious.
 
The more you teach the more you'll see there is no magic bullet to make students get it right, first try, every time. Having rock solid academic knowledge of what you're teaching isn't good enough.

First let me say this, when I started this post I had absolutely no intention of it turning into an argument pertaining to basic physical law. The intention was to hear from some of you guys different practical ways to try and teach away this habit. I knew the academics behind it coming into this thread and wasn't looking to discuss that.

This is why early on I mentioned trying a constant pitch approach to solidify that power really can get you altitude even on short final. I also spoke of flying the flare so they could get behind the power curve low to the ground and still have the knowledge and instincts to shove the nose forward and increase power to avoid touchdown. My hope was that people would expand upon this and give some other ideas relating to this, more experiments since that is really all they are to a student.

IMO you need an academic understanding of this only for the purpose of making yourself do it the first few times. I personally don't teach my students to understand all the academics behind it, that would be ridiculous, I explain them once or twice before the flight(s) where we focus on demonstrate them. Once you actually see it work in the real world I believe it helps to solidify the knowledge discussed on the ground. Much like a science experiment, discuss how and why it works, and then do some practical experiments to prove it. It is these experiments that I was hoping to get more insight on.

I haven't, or at least I don't think I have, claimed that knowing these academics is the end all be all here and will save every pilot. That being said I can't see how anyone can argue against teaching within the bounds of physical law first, both academia and practical experimentation, before teaching other methods.


On another note, you speak of teaching experience as if the only kind of teaching is related to airplanes. I spent many years teaching juggling, skiing, and various other basic sports to special education kids. I was a swim instructor giving private and group lessons for almost 10 years. In college I had a class designed for me and worked one on one with a teacher of 40+ years on teaching habits, psychology behind teaching, and practical application by assisting her in her college algebra class. Now I am a flight instructor.

Does this make me the best teacher ever, of course not, but I understood long ago that while there is no one way to teach everyone (which I discussed earlier with multiple intelligence's and such), there are right ways to teach things and wrong ways. I also know that you have to break everything down piece by piece and try to put it together in a correct and organized fashion if you have any expectation of getting it across to your student. To do this requires a teacher to have an impeccable knowledge of what they are teaching in this case physical law for the academic side.

If any procedure we teach can be wrong at any time in any phase of flight than you are doing exactly what the FOI discusses heavily, a negative transfer of learning. In the case in question teaching anything other than pitch for airspeed power for altitude is nothing more than a negative transfer of learning. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_learning


PS Jrh would you mind giving the constant pitch approach and flying the flare a shot and report back and let me know how it works? Also whatever else you do, as I stated before this is the purpose of this threat or at least was supposed to be, to get him to understand this concept? Thanks in advance.
 
Good thread, I laughed, I cried, I worried...

You are in Chemistry class if it smells bad.
You are in Biology class if it tastes bad.
And you are in Physics class if it doesn't work.

I think it does work, but it is hard to understand from the cockpit. Just saying physics can be hard to demonstrate.
 
Nah, I think he will be fine. We are after all flight instructors...not engineers.

Not if you refuse to understand the rudimentary concepts of physics your not, your simply a time builder and a wanna be CFI. Sorry dense skulls require sharp objects. ;) That being said, I don't think it is entirely your fault since a CFI has been nothing more than a stepping stone for pilots since the beginning and is therefore not taken very seriously.


A teacher is someone who is dedicated to understanding every possible thing they can about their craft and how to present that information to their students. In the case of flying: ADM, flight discipline, weather, aerodynamics, physical law/conceptual physics, flight systems, and most importantly anything related to psychology of teaching. I am sure I missed some things, but the point is you need to know (or at the very least should strive to know) as much as you possibly can about all of these topics to be a real CFI. The more in depth, the better.

Me personally, my weather knowledge blows plain and simple all I know is hot air rises and green stuff is bad. Slightly exaggerated of course, but the point is I have opted out of getting a II certificate for now until I get a chance to sit down and read some meteorology books. Reason? Well I want to understand what the heck I am talking about when I start teaching instrument pilots with regards to weather since that is the environment an IFR pilot will operate in. Similarly it is why I bust my butt to work on aerodynamics now since that is what a VFR pilot operates in and I don't want to give my students faulty information with regards to the physical environment.

An elementary school math teacher is taught algebra/calculus, do you think it is worthless for them to know that because they are only teaching grade 5-8? If you don't understand this stuff all your doing when you talk about anything related to how a plane flies, which you should be teaching, is chancing giving a false physical concepts. This was proven painstakingly so throughout this forum and many others. It isn't easy to learn, but it is necessary to understand if you plan to avoid giving false information with regards to the flight environment.


You know what I find truly ironic? Probably not, but here it is anyways, through the start of this thread (and many others that go into dynamics/physics/math) the argument is that the physics is wrong. Once it is realized that the physics isn't wrong the excuses as to why it isn't necessary to know come out next. Finally when that fails attention is further diverted by things like "there is no one way...," "this is too complex...," and "this is much more important..." A review of defense mechanisms makes this even more comical IMO.
 
Dude, don't be a full time instructor on a CFI board and say that. Remedy that quick.

That is a quick way to catch flak, and rightfully so.
What? Is that equation even in most private pilot textbooks? If it is then I bet it is one of those sidebar comments that is not part of the main body.
 
Stuff with a bit of pompous thrown in.
I see where you are coming from but the tone of your posts kind of discredits you a bit. Don't presume to think I am a bad instructor because I can't Impress people with my ability to regurgitate math equations. I haven't been doing this long but I have been able to send students for practical tests up from private, to initial CFI and CFI-I. So I think I have at least a clue of what I am doing.

You have your formulas, and thats good for you.

I have my personal experiences and that is good for me. Can I right now post the formula for Lift? Nope. Does that mean I don't know what lift is and how it is made and manipulated by the pilot? Again nope. My students know that if you pull back on the yoke you go up. They also know that if you pull back more you go down and they can explain why both happen. Sorry if you feel they are being trained in a deficient manner...so far I haven't got any complaints.

PS We are mostly on the same side of the argument. And I don't deny the validity of physics.
 
What? Is that equation even in most private pilot textbooks? If it is then I bet it is one of those sidebar comments that is not part of the main body.

It doesn't have to be, skip the first paragraph of what I said in the post above yours but the rest still stands true of anyone who wants to be a teacher.


poser765 said:
I see where you are coming from but the tone of your posts kind of discredits you a bit.

Yes, I was back and forth a bunch of times before finally posting that as it is an ego attack which I know reduces the chance of you perceiving the information. But it is understood by any other aspect of the teaching world, with the exception of flight, that one needs a thorough and complete understanding of their craft to be able to teach it. I don't see why we as pilots (who are not teachers) think this doesn't apply to us. My thoughts, laziness.

You might not fall into this bracket and I could be completely wrong, but saying "we are pilots not engineers" as reason for not having to understand any aerodynamics screams laziness IMO. A teacher needs to always learn and always improve their knowledge through study, not just teaching and having experiences.


poser765 said:
And I don't deny the validity of physics.

I know that is why I was so shocked you made this post!!! How can you say you don't deny the validity of it but than say you don't need to understand it when it explains the world you operate in? The unwillingness to want to learn this is what was so surprising to me when I read your post. Sorry for the direct jab there was still some built up frustration with mshunter.

I do hope you reconsider and take some time to understand the stuff because it is worth it.
 
Ok I think I see where the problem lies. Apparently I have a really poor ability to express my thoughts on internet message boards. Let me see If i can clarify a bit better.

The argument As I see it is not about knowledge of the field in question but the depth of ones knowledge in it. I am aware of physics and it's relation to aviation. I would say I even have a solid understanding of physics. Not a very good one by any means but solid. As I said I am a pilot. I understand airplanes and how they fly. The level of my knowledge of physics is right where I tihnk it should be in order to thoroughly teach people how to operate aircraft.

I will go out on a limb and state that it would be very hard to come up with a situation IN an airplane when being able to work a physics problem mathimaticaly will "Save the day". Though we are in flying is a technical field...we are not scientists.

You example of the math teacher in my mind may be a little off. Fifth grade math may not use a lot of discrete mathematics and calculus but it is still math thus relevant to the math teacher.

I equate this argument more to musicians. Musicians learn their instruments and other instruments to help them get a larger picture of of their role in a symphony. But they don't spend a whole lot of time sitting around pondering the propagation of sounds waves through gaseous mediums. They leave that to the fiddle makers.

We as pilots are the musicians. I can make my violin sing, but I don't need know the physics of sound to play it.
 
Ok I think I see where the problem lies. Apparently I have a really poor ability to express my thoughts on internet message boards. Let me see If i can clarify a bit better.

You and me both.


The level of my knowledge of physics is right where I tihnk it should be in order to thoroughly teach people how to operate aircraft.

Sure maybe it is getting you by, but if there is room for improvement in anything related to your field as a teacher should want to know more.

The point with the math teacher falls true for any math or science department, in other words any technical field which is what a CFI is teaching. Any math/science teacher is taught well beyond what they have to teach for the purpose of giving them a thorough understanding of what they are teaching.

This stuff isn't like music, history or any other non technical field where simple rote memorization can get you by. The neatest part about technical fields is EVERYTHING is linked together so the more you know the more things you can correlate. Then when it comes time to explain it you will understand what things you shouldn't say because they could confuse a student later on.


The level of my knowledge of physics is right where I tihnk it should be in order to thoroughly teach people how to operate aircraft.

This, "I don't either. Not a clue, nor do i really want to know. I do know that i am a safe, good pilot" in reference to the lift formula, which is basically aerodynamics for dummies lesson one, makes me question that. Maybe your other knowledge in the physical world is great, I don't know, but I find that a bit of a stretch if this simple concept isn't understood.

PS I don't mean the formula, but the components of it and how they interact with each other. Who cares if you can plug in the numbers and make it all work, that is for the engineers, but the concepts behind it should be clearly understood by every instructor IMO.
 
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