Bin Laden family Phenom crash report released.

T/O w/FSII

Well-Known Member
https://assets.publishing.service.g...4/Embraer_EMB-505_Phenom_300_HZ-IBN_12-16.pdf

A couple notes:
11k hours
50kt too fast on touchdown.
Landed on the last 1/3rd of the runway 1100ft remaining.
2500fpm down 500ft AGL
Due to TA/RA's the pilot had over 60 aural warnings in the pattern and may have been too distracted to recognize the high speed.

All occupants survived the impact but cause of death was post crash fire.

CFR only had 1 set of keys for the crash gate kept in one of the three vehicles. Gate access was delayed by 1 minute, EDIT: it was over 5 minutes from phone call to foam. Occupants most likely died in 90 seconds.

It was difficult for CFR to fight the fire due to the AC being surrounded by cars in a parking lot.

Crazy.
 
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All occupants survived the impact but cause of death was post crash fire.

CFR only had 1 set of keys for the crash gate kept in one of the three vehicles. Gate access was delayed by 1 minute, EDIT: it was over 5 minutes from phone call to foam. Occupants most likely died in 90 seconds.

It was difficult for CFR to fight the fire due to the AC being surrounded by cars in a parking lot.

Crazy.

Definite debrief item that needs to be changed yesterday, regarding one set of keys for an extry/exit perimeter gate located within the response area. All CFR/ARFF (Brits call it RFFS) vehicles should have complete sets of keys/keycards/codes for all applicable gates/fences/access points, that exist within their area of responsibility.

If you arrive at a gate during a critical emergency response and cannot get through it....no keys, code/card doesn't work after two or three tries, there's always the universal master key that can be used: driving straight through it. Response should never be unduly delayed by a factor such as a normal gate.

EGLK itself is an ICAO/RFFS Class 2 airfield in terms of ARFF capability. The US equivalent to that is ARFF Index A, the lowest protection category under 14 CFR 139. Which isn't surprising, given that EGLK is a GA field with no scheduled or unscheduled airline service. In the US, Part 139 only requires ARFF assets at airports that have scheduled/unscheduled air carrier service of varying size aircraft, to which the ARFF Index is tied to a combination of the length of the largest aircraft that operate at the field, and whether or not they average greater or less than 5 departures/day. Hence why many GA airports with only 14 CFR 91 ops in the USA have no ARFF trucks, as there is no requirement to. ICAO, however, requires some form of ARFF at all airports; which is why ICAO up to class 6, is still considered equivalent to FAA ARFF Index A.

As it is, EGLK has only 3 small ARFF vehicles totalling less than probably 900 gals of water/foam, and likely the same, or close to, amount of dry chemical stocks onboard, amongst the 3 vehicles. Aside from the gate situation, there were definitely a number of other issues that combined, made the post-crash fire one of sufficient size and intensity, that could not be controlled by the 3 vehicles and their available onboard agent, all of which was used. Looking at where the jet went down, it would've almost been better had it gone through the chain link fence surrounding the parking lot; at least that would've allowed a path for the ARFF trucks to proceed through. As it was, the jet hopped over a fence into a parking lot, causing the ARFF trucks to have to travel a fair distance just to get into the parking lot fence, after managing to pass through the perimeter gate, before being able to attack the fire.

With the jet in the parking lot and having lost a wing after impacting numerous cars, depending on the amount of fuel remaining and assuming a fairly level ground, there'd be serious leakage and pooling of fuel underneath the aircraft wreckage, that once it ignited almost immediately after the jet came to rest, would be burning intensely right underneath the fuselage. Combine that with the fuel in the impacted cars....along with other burning materials that burn on cars....fuel which itself likely was leaking; and you have a fire of such large size and intensity, that there's no way to control it or even attempt to cover the cabin exit(s)....much less even remotely attempt to extinguish it......with small ARFF vehicles and their stocks, whether applied by turret or handline(s). At least not until it mostly begins burning its fuel off. With the wreckage strewn in and amongst the cars in the parking lot (also burning), reaching the wreckage to perform any kind of rescue is simply not possible with that fire intensity.

From where the bodies were found all near the main cabin door, after they'd survived the crash itself and managed to get out of their seats, they likely expired quickly due to a combination of the intense fire that immediately or very quickly engulfed the cabin interior due to post-impact breaks in the fuselage once the fire started. The nearly complete destruction by fire of the fuselage didn't to allow for a clear reason of why the exit couldn't or wasn't opened. Fuselage deformation, improper/untrained in opening the door, mechanism issues; none could be determined, and will never be known.

In this video here, it can be seen how the fire size/intensity was just too large for the RFFS department of the airport. Too much fire for the finished foam to even begin to suppress or begin to form a blanket over.

 
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You call. We come. Sometimes it's too little, too late.

Better, the stabilized approach and not landing long - hoping to stop or that someone can pull your ass from the fire somehow.

Better to have working smoke and CO detectors at home, and to clean the chimney before heating season, and not to put those apparently-out ashes from the woodstove in a paper bag on the front porch 'cause it's easier. Better to cut the kids' hot dog/apple into small pieces (and avoid the toddler's popcorn, however well-buttered), and to avoid multiple drinks with that perfectly-cooked steak. Peanut Butter on white bread (or worse, Fluffernutters)? Well, you won't clear THAT well-lodged mess with the Heimlich, and unless you're very, VERY lucky, the professional responder with suction (and a limited hope) will roll up in five to seven minutes. That's a long time to hold one's breath; nearly an eternity, one might say ...

Complacency and carelessness has killed for millenia in uncounted ways; on the highways, byways and airways, in the workplace, the restaurants we visit and - yes - often in the sanctuary of home. It never pays to cut corners, trusting that a stranger will get there before you choke to death on a pickle, or die huddled in an upstairs bathtub while a fire rages below.

When did you last test/replace the battery on your smoke and CO alarms (each floor of your home)? Do you have accessible, appropriate fire extinguishers available at well-placed locations in your home (and know how to use them correctly)? Do you practice exit drills, with a designated outdoor meeting place to "count noses?" Are you trained in basic first aid, CPR, the Heimlich? Do you know how to safely put out a simple grease fire on your stove-top before it extends to cabinets and curtains? Can you control serious bleeding after a loved-one, friend, neighbor, trips and puts an arm through the decorative glass alongside your front door?

Still ... people call, we come, and we do our damndest in often-irreversible situations. It would just be SO much better for everyone involved if those circumstances never initially developed. No matter how valiant the effort undertaken in trying to mitigate the impossible, someone always lives with the resulting change of those terrible moments, though often not the primary victims of the tragedy.

In the example, above, driving through the gate would have made no difference. The people on that plane were already dead, in every practical sense, when the landing was committed to 1,100 feet before the runway's end.

Like it or not, anticipation and mitigation/prevention of a situation are always better than an emergency reaction to it.
 
Just to be clear, its only a interesting fact regarding the CFR in that they technically survived the crash, almost no amount of CFR would have saved them. I am in no way criticizing the response. They just crashed in a very poor area.

It's more interesting that the pilot who seemed well trained with good experience managed to fixate on landing the airplane speed and runway be damned.
 
Just to be clear, its only a interesting fact regarding the CFR in that they technically survived the crash, almost no amount of CFR would have saved them. I am in no way criticizing the response. They just crashed in a very poor area.

It's more interesting that the pilot who seemed well trained with good experience managed to fixate on landing the airplane speed and runway be damned.

You were merely pointing out facts regarding time factors and response delays, all very valid points you make.

The gate thing is definitely a valid criticism in terms of causing an undue delay for any accident/incident where access through that, or other, gates may occur. Really no excuse for not having all trucks equally equipped with access keys/cards etc, regardless of whether it would've made a difference or not in this particular case.

I was only expanding on some detail regarding what the fire service there was equipped with, what some challenges were with this accident, and how that affected the ability to fight the fire. Just to offer some more insight. Especially insight into what airports here in the USA have for CFR, or not. And what the requirements are. Many pilots have no idea what an airport they are going to has for CFR services, or if it even has any at all....including their home airport. Because many GA airports don't, here in the USA.

Nothing you wrote was any kind of unwarranted criticism; you pointed out facts that occurred, and generated some good conversation and learning. Good thread.
 
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Procedural intentional noncompliance much? (It's okay - until it really, really isn't...)

See Page 19, which was NOT the accident flight.
 
Just to be clear, its only a interesting fact regarding the CFR in that they technically survived the crash, almost no amount of CFR would have saved them. I am in no way criticizing the response. They just crashed in a very poor area.

It's more interesting that the pilot who seemed well trained with good experience managed to fixate on landing the airplane speed and runway be damned.

Who knows what pressures the pilot was dealing with from the passengers.
Procedural intentional noncompliance much? (It's okay - until it really, really isn't...)

See Page 19, which was NOT the accident flight.

"During this landing the flaps were still extending as the aircraft touched down."

Weeeeeeeeeee!!!
 
Another interesting question is would this have happened if you had a two crew flight deck? A trained and even slightly aggressive F/O would be screaming "go around" and maybe even pushing the TOGA switches.
 
Another interesting question is would this have happened if you had a two crew flight deck? A trained and even slightly aggressive F/O would be screaming "go around" and maybe even pushing the TOGA switches.
Not so sure. The flight was in Allah's hands at this point. I've trained a lot of pilots from the Middle East and they generally have a hard time taking control of situations like this.
 
Not so sure. The flight was in Allah's hands at this point. I've trained a lot of pilots from the Middle East and they generally have a hard time taking control of situations like this.

:rolleyes:


Another interesting question is would this have happened if you had a two crew flight deck? A trained and even slightly aggressive F/O would be screaming "go around" and maybe even pushing the TOGA switches.

For sure, it could have been that one extra thing that prevented the accident link chain effect.
 
Another interesting question is would this have happened if you had a two crew flight deck? A trained and even slightly aggressive F/O would be screaming "go around" and maybe even pushing the TOGA switches.
Well that's easy to find out...Flight Options managed to do it, two crew, also in a Phenom 300. Their saving grace was flat land and a lack of car parks. Two guys averaging 10,000 hours. No "go-around" call, no TO/GA buttons pushed. Complete with a "you're stabilized" call right above 200', with the flaps not even selected to a landing setting. Score.

http://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20130806X31354&key=1

The flight crew of the light jet was conducting a landing to a wet 5,000-ft-long runway. Their preflight calculations indicated an approach speed of 110 knots given the airplane's estimated landing weight. Data obtained from the flight recorder showed that, as the airplane descended through about 500 ft above ground level on final approach, its speed was 186 knots and its rate of descent was over 3,000 ft per minute. The airplane crossed the runway threshold about 158 knots, and touched down about 1,000 feet down the runway about 145 knots. The airplane subsequently departed the end of the runway, impacted obstructions, and came to rest upright on a four-lane highway about 1,000 ft beyond the runway surface.
 
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How do we know they survived the impact?

Page 31:
Medical and pathological information Post-mortem examinations were carried out by a Home Office pathologist. He found that all four occupants of the aircraft died from the effects of fire. Toxicological analysis found no alcohol or drugs in samples taken from the pilot’s body.

The examinations found clear evidence of soot inhalation in larynx, trachea and small passages of the lungs, combined with blood carboxyhaemoglobin saturation11 levels of between 40-60%12, in all occupants. The post-mortem examinations did not identify any injuries not related to the fire that could have caused or contributed to death.

A really interesting article from last year that brings up some good points:
Private Jets Have More Fatal Accidents Than Commercial Planes
In fatal crashes involving private or charter flights, investigators usually blame careless pilots

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...rivate-or-charter-jets-than-flying-commercial
 
The terror of those thirty-seconds, or so, before lapsing into unconsciousness can only be imagined. You live, in terror, struggling desperately to survive, until the moment you pass out.

There are more gentle, less traumatic, ends to human life.

May you never, ever, experience this one.
 
They make such a big deal about the link to OBL. He had 11-18 step mothers and 55 siblings. Not running low.
 
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