Below Glideslope but on the PAPI's

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Any of you guys that have flown the ILS to 23 into CLT know about this issue. I'm sure other airports have the same problem but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

You are on GS and on the PAPI's until about a 1/2 mile final. Then if you transition to pure visual and follow the PAPI's you get the the AFCS yelling at you "Glideslope! Glideslope!". I'd love to know what's the legal solution here...I've been told when operating 121 one cannot go below GS even when on a visual approach yet I have been unable to find anything in the FAR's that addresses this particualr situation.

Anyone know for sure?
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
What's the GS matter when you're below DH? At that point, the glide slope means nothing.

I can't stand when people chase that incredibly inaccurate GS in CLT below DH, completely neglecting the fact that it's not supposed to be used down there, isn't certified to be accurate and will most likely just hose you.

Below DH you're outside the aircraft and if you have the PAPI's, awesome; stay on them.
 

Piperflyer

Well-Known Member
What do you fly? Is there an Inhibit Button? Lots of airports are like this, I remember it happening all the time in JFK for instance.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
"VGSI and descent angle not coincident". Or some such wording.
 

MusketeerMan

Well-Known Member
Technically speaking...once landing is assured, you are allowed to go below the glide slope, correct? Not gonna search through the FAR/AIM right now, but I'm fairly certain that's the rule. I guess one can question as to when landing is assured. I landed on 23 four times this past 4-day trip and hit the GS Inhibit button each and every time so I wouldn't get screamed at, because if you miss that damn hill..well, you know. (I also do it on 5 in ORF...anyone else think that if you follow the GS down, it'll take you way the heck down the runway?)
 

C150J

Well-Known Member
I do not know of any regulations that mandate adhering to the GS all the way to touchdown while operating under part 121 operations. A lot of our guys will dip below once landing is safely assured and state "VISUAL" if the GPWS GS goes off.
 

Alchemy

Well-Known Member
If you're IMC or can't see the PAPI for some reason, use the glideslope, if visual, use the papi. If you're on a visual decouple from the ILS and fly heading and vertical speed if the aural warnings are intolerable. Better yet turn all the automation off and fly the raw data. That's what I'd do anyway. In the plane I fly dipping slightly below g/s and taking ~ 5% off the N1 once you cross the threshold is about the only way to hit the 1000ft markers without making a crater. I think I've only set off the g/s aural warning once or twice.
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
I'd say that dipping the airplane below GS on purpose, and by that I mean hitting DH and dropping the plane so that you put the mains on the numbers is, by and large, unsafe. Keep flying at the same angle all the way down to the touchdown zone.
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
If you're IMC or can't see the PAPI for some reason, use the glideslope, if visual, use the papi. If you're on a visual decouple from the ILS and fly heading and vertical speed if the aural warnings are intolerable. Better yet turn all the automation off and fly the raw data. That's what I'd do anyway.
True dat, but you'd be surprised how many captains there are out there who get really, really uncomfortable when you turn off the AP and FD on a visual. A normal slam dunk visual for me was going into a place like STL, being parallel to the airport in the downwind at 10,000'. Once we're cleared for the visual the first thing that happens is boards and flaps 9, followed by the FD coming off. Put your bearing pointer on the marker and turn your base the marker.

You don't need the FD for that.
 

MusketeerMan

Well-Known Member
Who says landing on the numbers?? For 23, I try to land between the numbers and the 1000' markers, thus dipping below the GS once landing is assured, which is safe and legal.
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
You know I'm actually not sure it's safe or legal, let me see if I can dig something up for you. I think this is a bad technique that's carried over from GA aircraft and should not be applied to a transport category jet.

My concern would be belowing below the Threshold Crossing Height if you dip the airplane down.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Well we have c/a's at PDT that would bet their life that going below GS at any point before TD is in fact not legal in 121 rev service....I'm not saying I agree, just mentioning that there are many pilots that believe this to be true...I'd love to get the FAA's position on this...any controllers want to chime in?
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
Ask them how they're getting to the runway below DH. Unless you're doing an autoland, any approach, even an ILS, is just something to get you close enough to be able to do a visual maneuver.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
I dunno JT..I don't have any trouble doing that when I think about it and consciously fly the slope to the ground..but again I fly the Dash and doing that ain't that tough ..It still puts you on pavement in the TD zone.
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
It's not hard in the EMB-145 either. Just continue to fly the same angle you're on to the touchdown zone.

Dipping below the visual glideslope once below DH, in my mind, is bad technique that no decent pilot should ever need to rely upon. There are too many examples of transport category jets dragging their wheels through the approach lighting system to justify the maneuver to me.

And I mean you can start you're flare in an EMB-145 over the 1,000' markers, have it down within 500' EASILY and then stopped in another 1,000-2,000' depending on how ape#### you want to go on the brakes/reverse. I've put the -145 down in the touchdone zone on 33 at DCA without dipping below the PAPPI's and still had it off by Juliet.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
I'd say that dipping the airplane below GS on purpose, and by that I mean hitting DH and dropping the plane so that you put the mains on the numbers is, by and large, unsafe. Keep flying at the same angle all the way down to the touchdown zone.
The company says that's what they want us to do AND land in the first 1000-1300 ft. Well, on 36L in MEM, if you stay on the GS, you're gonna land 1500 ft down the runway. I've run the math. Like Eric said, in the CRJ if you wanna do that and NOT make a crater, you're gonna be going below GS at some point.

Personally, I do the "Visual" and hit the GPWS button if the G/S goes off. I know there are some runways we land on (36L in MEM being one of them) that if you follow the PAPIs, you're likely to get a "Glideslpe" warning.
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
I'd very much like to hear what the mainline guys who have been flying large, transport category jets for the last 20 years have to say about this.
 

Minuteman

“Dongola”
Interesting, FAAO 8900.1 4-221 says
NOTE: Principal inspectors shall not approve an operator’s procedure unless the stabilized approach concept is used for all turbojet aircraft operations. It is recommended for all propeller driven aircraft and rotorcraft in IFR weather conditions." (my emphasis)
Turboprops are free to do whatever they want, wooo! :panic: (I know, this is about visual approaches. I just thought the distinction was unusual.)
 
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