B-Jet crash in San Diego

Fixtur said:
There's no visibility requirements to begin an approach Part 91, and the temptation to take a little peek is strong, especially when you're tired and just want to get home.

I posted that little story up there because this accident is the closest I've seen to a "that coulda been me".l, and we were two trained, checked, experienced and competent pilots who very nearly got ourselves into the same situation because we just wanted to get home.

Your point is well taken that if either of us had been flying alone we might not have had that "what the hell are we doing?!" moment.

Fix
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Nothing wrong with taking a peak as long as you don't bust stepdowns and MDA's. Looking at the radar data he was doing a dive and drive. That's fine but you simply can't bust altitudes and expect to live on a dive and drive. I'm still not understanding why the weather at MYF was not recorded/available. Maybe I'm missing something. SAN seems to have been great at the time of accident. People on the scene were saying it was very low vis. I noticed MYF has an ATIS but seems like when the tower is closed you'd have an ASOS to give you current conditions. What WX info did this guy have for his approach? If it's nothing, then dive and drive to your hearts content but don't CFIT. There were several non-standard things going on that morning. ALS notamed inop, no WX available, ILS not available, long duty day, and groundspeeds on the radar datablock were not CAT B ish, which made the whole thing illegal. But in the end, after all that, all this guy had to do, in spite of the swiss cheese lining up, was not bust MDA. And he did.
 
DE727UPS said:
Nothing wrong with taking a peak as long as you don't bust stepdowns and MDA's. Looking at the radar data he was doing a dive and drive. That's fine but you simply can't bust altitudes and expect to live on a dive and drive. I'm still not understanding why the weather at MYF was not recorded/available. Maybe I'm missing something. SAN seems to have been great at the time of accident. People on the scene were saying it was very low vis. I noticed MYF has an ATIS but seems like when the tower is closed you'd have an ASOS to give you current conditions. What WX info did this guy have for his approach? If it's nothing, then dive and drive to your hearts content but don't CFIT. There were several non-standard things going on that morning. ALS notamed inop, no WX available, ILS not available, long duty day, and groundspeeds on the radar datablock were not CAT B ish, which made the whole thing illegal. But in the end, after all that, all this guy had to do, in spite of the swiss cheese lining up, was not bust MDA. And he did.
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Nothing at all wrong with a step down descent (hate the term ‘dive and drive’, as it gives a connotation that following step downs is some kind of dangerous maneuver or something, which we know it isn’t), but yeah, gotta honor the step downs as well as be within Category; especially with MYF’s short runways. ASOS had some items not available on it, “missing” as it said. Was that way after tower was closed when I was there last week. Just get Wx from NKX a few miles north, which is probably what he got..

melax said:
The ASOS and runway lights were both out (NOTAME'd) according to rumors. (I didn't check)
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News was saying “runway lights were out”, which they weren’t, at least not when I was there a couple nights prior. They’re on at medium intensity all night when tower is closed, but the ALS has to be activated pilot controlled. ALS and RAILs were NOTAMd out, but the news doesn’t now the difference.
 
JDean3204 said:
Oh I feel your pain on that as well. I still remember my first 4 leg 3 sort all nighter from 9pm-9am. That was in the DHL domestic system and I ran far away from those lines asap.
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Was this the 757/767? Could you give a trip example of what that would be like? How long was the sort sit?
 
Kingairer said:
These kind of details like, Cat B or C, or if they even had the visibility required by the approach are things where I think a second, qualified, pilot could really be of assistance. I think it is harder to break the rules or "fudge a little" when someone else is sitting right beside you. Especially when you're fatigued!
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From personal experience in 91/135, when it comes to rule breaking it’s far more likely that the person sitting next to the rule breaker is also a rule breaker, or at the very least is too inexperienced to know a rule is being broke or is too timid or inexperienced to speak up.

It can be a long conversation when the “so where did you come from” question is asked, or “wow what made you leave 91/135 I’ve thought about doing it someday” question follows, but stuff like this is exactly why I left for 121. Of course now I’m a DEC at a regional and have discovered it isn’t too dissimilar from 135 in some ways. It’s better, but only just.
 
Fixtur said:
(Answered my own question) - he was cleared for the RNAV.
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That would make sense because he was down around LPV mins. Perhaps he misread LPV mins as the MDA. Was he successful getting the runway lights on with the mike clicks? In any case, he was way too low, way too far out from the runway. There was a Cascade Airlines B99 crash like 35 years ago at GEG on a VOR/DME where they mis-selected the DME from the VOR instead of the LOC. They darn near hit the VOR. If I remember right, even with being that low in the wrong place, if they had not busted the MDA they wouldn't have hit anything.
 
DE727UPS said:
That would make sense because he was down around LPV mins. Perhaps he misread LPV mins as the MDA. Was he successful getting the runway lights on with the mike clicks? In any case, he was way too low, way too far out from the runway. There was a Cascade Airlines B99 crash like 35 years ago at GEG on a VOR/DME where they mis-selected the DME from the VOR instead of the LOC. They darn near hit the VOR. If I remember right, even with being that low in the wrong place, if they had not busted the MDA they wouldn't have hit anything.
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the runway lights at MYF are on all night for 28R, no mic clicks required. However the ALS and PAPIs are pilot controlled. With the prevailing vis, he probably never even saw the airport before impact. And 3/4 viz is still a fair amount, probably that for the terrain, since it applies to both fixed wing and rotary wing.
 
If he was on the LPV, then he was way way below GS.

Too far below to be accounted for by altimeter missetting.

AP didn't capture the LPV glideslope and he didn't notice? Selected the ILS GS accidentally and was receiving erroneous signals? Who knows. Lots can happen single pilot after a long transcon in crappy weather in the middle of the night.

Fix
 
When I went through the Loft Citation type, it was totally scripted and on script. When I felt like I needed more time with the FMC/CDU thing, I was told unable as it's not in the syllabus. There was no time to vary from the syllabus and I should just let the F/O program the box. I told them to stop the sim and literally walked out of the building. They were kind enough to gift the balance of my sim time to a friend a year later. I came from a 121 background with a union. If you need more time on something, you got more time, and the Capt was expect to know how to everything the F/O had to do. Surreal experience.
 
DE727UPS said:
When I went through the Loft Citation type, it was totally scripted and on script. When I felt like I needed more time with the FMC/CDU thing, I was told unable as it's not in the syllabus. There was no time to vary from the syllabus and I should just let the F/O program the box. I told them to stop the sim and literally walked out of the building. They were kind enough to gift the balance of my sim time to a friend a year later. I came from a 121 background with a union. If you need more time on something, you got more time, and the Capt was expect to know how to everything the F/O had to do. Surreal experience.
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Yeah, "121 stink" generally means "expects to to know wtf he/she is doing, rather than just checking the requisite boxes and hoping for the best". Not always, but often.
 
DE727UPS said:
When I went through the Loft Citation type, it was totally scripted and on script. When I felt like I needed more time with the FMC/CDU thing, I was told unable as it's not in the syllabus. There was no time to vary from the syllabus and I should just let the F/O program the box. I told them to stop the sim and literally walked out of the building. They were kind enough to gift the balance of my sim time to a friend a year later. I came from a 121 background with a union. If you need more time on something, you got more time, and the Capt was expect to know how to everything the F/O had to do. Surreal experience.
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Maybe it's the Stockholm syndrome talking, but the Universal is my favorite FMS out of all the ones I've operated. The interface is a bit clunky but it has everything you need and nothing that you don't. My favorite features were the vertical speed required in real time to meet crossing restrictions, and being able to type in headings while staying in LNAV for some buttery smooth intercepts. Now the GNS-XLS, that's the work of the Devil or some seriously evil individual.
 
It certainly didn't help that I spent years using a different CDU. The Universal was in the book and we spent a few moments on it in the sim. When I mentioned I was weak on it the instructor said "It's in the book, you should know it by now". Then when I asked for more time (which I would gladly paid for). "It's not in the syllabus and we don't have time for that". They ran everything so tight there wasn't room for extra training.
 
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