Aztek "what-if...?" What would you do?

[Bumblebee]

Well, this is a good discussion because now I have several questions for my CFI, such as, what sort of a delay is there between tuning the ASOS and asking Center for the weather?

ask him this, and don't tell him what you learned here ....I'm interested in his response...

 

[buzzin77]

I told the story wrong. There were two airports nearby that had no weather stations, so they were going off the Area Forecast, which was a little dated, and obviously not specific to individual airports.

This weekend we're flying cross-country in the Aztec, and I'm looking forward to it. It'll be a good chance to fly the Aztec in real life, beyond the practice area. I was PNF on a short trip, but that's been it since the checkride. I am still planning the flight, and will make sure to specifically check the notams for cows, unicorns, marching bands, etc.

 

[Bumblebee]

Excellent clarification! And funny!

 

[montanapilot]

my question is why are you flying a Pontiac around?

an Aztek is a piece of crap pontiac crossover truck.
an Aztec is an airplane.

 

[pilotbry]

my question is why are you flying a Pontiac around?

an Aztek is a piece of crap pontiac crossover truck.
an Aztec is an airplane.

I was wondering how long this thread was going to go without someone pointing that out. My airplane is an Azteque. It has a DJ & a dance floor with a mirror ball inside.
:rawk:

 

[Bumblebee]

I have a mirror ball in my house!

I was wondering how long this thread was going to go without someone pointing that out. My airplane is an Azteque. It has a DJ & a dance floor with a mirror ball inside.
:rawk:

 

[msmspilot]

Not sure how up to date center's weather is, but they're getting it from the ASOS as well....should be rather current. Just tune the ASOS, and get it yourself. Tower has the most recent weather(off the asos) and you can ask them for that instead of the ATIS, or rather any changes, especially if weather is rapidly changing, such as vis.

Center is usually going off the METAR which is issued from the ASOS/AWOS, but only once an hour. I don't know how well they update the METAR in rapidly changing conditions. Also remember on an ASOS/AWOS that they use a form of averaging to give their numbers. That prevents a single cloud from getting listed as OVC (with some caveats) but it also means that the 3SM visibility may be 1/2SM when you listen to the thing even though it's being updated every minute.

 

[ppragman]

Center is usually going off the METAR which is issued from the ASOS/AWOS, but only once an hour. I don't know how well they update the METAR in rapidly changing conditions. Also remember on an ASOS/AWOS that they use a form of averaging to give their numbers. That prevents a single cloud from getting listed as OVC (with some caveats) but it also means that the 3SM visibility may be 1/2SM when you listen to the thing even though it's being updated every minute.

That's why you wait to check in until you're inside the final approach fix! though I do know a few "old school" freight dawggies that do this...

Or more succinctly, "how come Steve made it in and you guys didn't?!" "Because Steve has no fear of death."

 

[msmspilot]

That's why you wait to check in until you're inside the final approach fix! though I do know a few "old school" freight dawggies that do this...

Or more succinctly, "how come Steve made it in and you guys didn't?!" "Because Steve has no fear of death."

Who checks the ASOS outside the marker? Wusses

 

[buzzin77]

EPILOGUE

I wanted to share something that came up on a long cross-country flight with this CFI this fall. We went from Traverse City in Northern Michigan to Norfolk, Virginia. On the way back we landed at First Flight (Kitty Hawk) and then Ingalls Field in the southwest corner of Virginia, in the mountains. The flight was IFR for about the last hour to the field, and it was pretty windy. There are downdrafts on the final approach, so it was kind of tricky, but there is an ILS. It was challenging, anyway. There was a unicom operator (the nice lady that runs the FBO) and she gave us regular wind updates on the way in.

Anyway, the funny thing about this field is that if you read the notes in the A/FD, it says, watch out for wild animals and fly a low approach to check for wildlife when the field is unattended! Whuut?!

Also, it's been really good flying with this CFI and I became a commercial multi pilot this month. The cross country flight really helped me become comfortable with the airplane, and I flew one other actual instrument approach into Burke Lakefront (Cleveland) with near minimum ceilings and 2SM that was a circle to land while avoiding the tallships docked near the stadium. That was really fun, less stressful than the Hot Springs approach. We also did something I thought was cool, which was a river visual approach into Norfolk. I always wanted to do a charted visual approach, it's kind of a novelty, I think. Making the "pilgrimage" to the Wright Brothers monument was pretty fun, too.

So even though I embellished our conversation on the perils of the single-engine go-around in case of cows on the runway, my CFI prepared me well for real-life IFR flying in the Aztec and I was completely over-prepared when it came time to take the checkride. In fact, I got the multi added to my private cert first, and the examiner was being examined by two FAA inspectors, so that oral portion was thorough, to say the least.

 

[z987k]

There are lot of airports out west with that same verbiage. ILS and LPV that get you down to 200' and 1/4 mile.. in a canyons sometimes. Doing a low approach with 1/4 mile vis is not an option and single engine, the missed is considerably worse than anything that can be on the runway. Make it night, and you won't see the animal until you're 40 ft from hitting it at 80kts anyways.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Is this guy your instructor?

 

[WalterSobchak]

Here's a systems/situational question my instructor asked me. It's one of those, "what if..." that goes on forever, has no right answer, no matter what you answer, you're wrong, I'm right. The point is to think critically, although, what the instructor would do is not the same as what I would do, hypothetically.

The need-to-know systems information: the critical engine of the Aztek F (PA-23-250) runs the hydraulic pump, used to lower the landing gear.

The situation: Weather is at minimums. You lose the critical engine and feather the prop. You are going to land at some airport (whether it has a tower, runway length, etc. are not specified). You don't have time to pump the gear down (it takes 50 pumps). You have the performance to execute a go-around, but only if the gear and flaps are up.

The gazillion dollar question: Do you pump down the gear by hand, or leave the gear up to be able to go around in case you need to?

My first answer: Descend to DH/MDA with the gear and flaps up. Use the emergency CO2 to lower the gear when the runway's in sight and you know landing is assured.

Response: There is a cow on the runway.

Me: Why is there a cow on the runway? I declared an emergency and the tower cleared me to land and
said the emergency crew is standing by.

Response: It's an uncontrolled field

Me: ?. Land on the adjacent taxiway.

Response: You can't. You just popped out under the clouds and it's too far away. You just can't. There is no adjacent taxiway.

Me: Fly over the cow and land on the remaining runway.

Response: You can't. The runway is too short.

Me: Ok, forget that. I have the performance to climb on one engine, right?

Response: Ya, if the gear is up.

Me: Ok, do what we do in the seaplane, overfly the landing area and make sure it is safe to land.
Scope it out, go missed, then when you see that the cow is off the runway, do the approach again, use the CO2 to lower the gear and land.

Response:Why would you go around on one engine if you don't have to?

Me: Friggin duh, exactly, why would you? I'm not trained to do a go-around on one engine, but I am trained to land on one engine.

Response: I would land gear up. That way I could go around if I needed to.

Me: And strike the prop. Then youneed a new engine.

Response: The insurance will pay for it.

Me: Nice.

Response: You wouldn't land gear up?

Me: No. The boss would want to know why I ruined his engine for no reason. And I would say, "because there might have been a cow/plow truck/marching band" on the runway that I needed to go around for."

Response: The cow story is a true story.

Me: Oh, I believe you.

Response: One of the instructors, L-------, had to go around for a bunch of cows on a rural airport. Also, there might be golf carts, like at one other airport. That's right, golf carts cross the runway. All the time.

Me: Ok, so leave the gear up, land on the belly. Use the starter to turn the prop horizontal. Wreck the right engine.

Response: Now you get it.

Me: How about, if I can climb on one engine, then just fly to a bigger airport, with a long runway, with emergency personnel, with better weather.

Response: Uh uh uh uh. Shhhhhhhhhhhh.

Me: Let's practice some single engine go-arounds.

Response: OK!

ALRIGHTY THEN. Those last couple lines were made up, but I think you catch my drift. I only have 15 hours of multi time (Private add-on), never did a single engine go-around, did a bunch of single engine landings, and was given some study material written by a pilot that discouraged OEI go-arounds (Whitney Ballantine).

SO. What do you think? I think my instructor has a point, but he said he wouldn't even have time to reach down, open the door to the CO2, and pull the ring to activate the emergency gear extension. I say, go for it, it'll only take a second, and it might save $60,000. Unless there is a cow on the runway.

MORE SERIOUSLY. The point was to talk about the situation and understand that in a light twin, you must make decisions taking into account every aspect of the situation. There are no hard decisions that will work for everything. At least, that's what I try to get out of it.

Tell the examiner he is a dumbass and leave said check ride. Are you in Icing conditions? Are Aliens attacking you? Are there going to be school children playing in the grass with bunnies? I've actually had to do that in an Aztec for real, by myself in the 135 days. Thank God there wasn't a cow on the runway.......

 

[MikeD]

These kind of scenarios, even though somewhat unrealistic with the amount of crap piled on, do make you think. As an examiner, it is nothing I'd ever grade an examinee on, but moreso it would be an "extra credit" discussion after the exam is over. One of those "let me share a story of a really bad day" kind of takeaway from the examination for the student to have. So long as the student can learn some salient points, such as how one emergency can pile up into multiple, unrelated ones; how quick thinking decisions are sometimes needed; or how certain decision trees in certain emergencies can have various counsequences, intended or unintended. Those are things I'd use as a good, quick, non-graded, post-check discussion, takeaway for the student to have at least heard once in his life. So when the time comes that something crazy happens like that to him in terms of things piling up, it isn't really the first time his brain has heard of it.

So it's all in the presentation and how scenarios stuff like this is utilized. Nothing to grade a student on, but can be a good "food for thought" takeaway from a successful checkride.

 

[fbm2009]

I would go the to larger controlled if it was a better option.

But say your in the middle of no where. You're not going to make it to LAX SFO ORD DEN etc.

As horrible as this next statement may also sound, it could be an option. I know nothing about aztecs and how well they go on SE. But. Ok its IFR and your on the approach. Youve already picked up the ATIS/AWOS/ASOS whatever your strip has. Youre fairly certain now that you will break out before minimums, bar the rogue cloud hovering right above the numbers... IF per chance, you have say, 500 between you and the ground being clear of the clouds (you're likely in G airspace so...) what is to stop you from doing a fly over, checking for the proverbial cow/deer/bear/firetruck, once you see its clear, blow your CO2 out, and do a low level circuit and put her on the ground.


Again. I have no idea how the aztec works. It may take up the up the performance of a refrigerator...

 

[Bumblebee]

this is a stupid scenario...you fly the plane, normal procedures, get it on the ground avoid the damn unicorn on the runway...punch the instructor in the face, do a shot.