Aztek "what-if...?" What would you do?

buzzin77

Well-Known Member
Here's a systems/situational question my instructor asked me. It's one of those, "what if..." that goes on forever, has no right answer, no matter what you answer, you're wrong, I'm right. The point is to think critically, although, what the instructor would do is not the same as what I would do, hypothetically.

The need-to-know systems information: the critical engine of the Aztek F (PA-23-250) runs the hydraulic pump, used to lower the landing gear.

The situation: Weather is at minimums. You lose the critical engine and feather the prop. You are going to land at some airport (whether it has a tower, runway length, etc. are not specified). You don't have time to pump the gear down (it takes 50 pumps). You have the performance to execute a go-around, but only if the gear and flaps are up.

The gazillion dollar question: Do you pump down the gear by hand, or leave the gear up to be able to go around in case you need to?

My first answer: Descend to DH/MDA with the gear and flaps up. Use the emergency CO2 to lower the gear when the runway's in sight and you know landing is assured.

Response: There is a cow on the runway.

Me: Why is there a cow on the runway? I declared an emergency and the tower cleared me to land and
said the emergency crew is standing by.

Response: It's an uncontrolled field

Me: ?. Land on the adjacent taxiway.

Response: You can't. You just popped out under the clouds and it's too far away. You just can't. There is no adjacent taxiway.

Me: Fly over the cow and land on the remaining runway.

Response: You can't. The runway is too short.

Me: Ok, forget that. I have the performance to climb on one engine, right?

Response: Ya, if the gear is up.

Me: Ok, do what we do in the seaplane, overfly the landing area and make sure it is safe to land.
Scope it out, go missed, then when you see that the cow is off the runway, do the approach again, use the CO2 to lower the gear and land.

Response:Why would you go around on one engine if you don't have to?

Me: Friggin duh, exactly, why would you? I'm not trained to do a go-around on one engine, but I am trained to land on one engine.

Response: I would land gear up. That way I could go around if I needed to.

Me: And strike the prop. Then youneed a new engine.

Response: The insurance will pay for it.

Me: Nice.

Response: You wouldn't land gear up?

Me: No. The boss would want to know why I ruined his engine for no reason. And I would say, "because there might have been a cow/plow truck/marching band" on the runway that I needed to go around for."

Response: The cow story is a true story.

Me: Oh, I believe you.

Response: One of the instructors, L-------, had to go around for a bunch of cows on a rural airport. Also, there might be golf carts, like at one other airport. That's right, golf carts cross the runway. All the time.

Me: Ok, so leave the gear up, land on the belly. Use the starter to turn the prop horizontal. Wreck the right engine.

Response: Now you get it.

Me: How about, if I can climb on one engine, then just fly to a bigger airport, with a long runway, with emergency personnel, with better weather.

Response: Uh uh uh uh. Shhhhhhhhhhhh.

Me: Let's practice some single engine go-arounds.

Response: OK!

ALRIGHTY THEN. Those last couple lines were made up, but I think you catch my drift. I only have 15 hours of multi time (Private add-on), never did a single engine go-around, did a bunch of single engine landings, and was given some study material written by a pilot that discouraged OEI go-arounds (Whitney Ballantine).

SO. What do you think? I think my instructor has a point, but he said he wouldn't even have time to reach down, open the door to the CO2, and pull the ring to activate the emergency gear extension. I say, go for it, it'll only take a second, and it might save $60,000. Unless there is a cow on the runway.

MORE SERIOUSLY. The point was to talk about the situation and understand that in a light twin, you must make decisions taking into account every aspect of the situation. There are no hard decisions that will work for everything. At least, that's what I try to get out of it.
 
Go back in time and bitchslap the idiot that decided to only put one hyd pump on the airplane.
 
I would do the emergency gear extension and land the airplane. Would you rather go off the end of the runway at 20 knots? Or possibly auger it in at 90? Single engine go arounds in a light twin are a sketchy proposition. Get it right the first time and get it on the ground, even it it means touching down in the grass to the side of the runway.
 
Land and hit the cow? :sarcasm:

I like your idea. Find an airport with a huge runway and better weather.
 
The other guy's thought process is terrible. He is saying, he'd rather land hear up in case there might be a cow on the runway instead of landing gear down and plowing the cow if the .00001% chance that it is there. He justifies the write off of the whole plane by saying insurance will cover it, but insurance will cover hitting the cow as well, so that's not a valid argument. So he's taking the .00001% over the 99? If I owned the airplane and you did this, you'd be out on your ass very quickly. The aztruck will take the cow well enough, it's a pretty beastly airplane.
 
The aztruck will take the cow well enough, it's a pretty beastly airplane.

That's what I was thinking...I mean, how much damage would really occur in an Aztec (or any airplane for that matter) if you hit a cow at ~ 80-90 MPH? I'm sure there would be carnage everywhere but I would imagine that hitting a cow would be survivable.

I've seen pictures of deer being hit, a couple of famous pics with a King Air 200 involved...not a lot of damage, just a ton of blood...everywhere.
 
I dont have much of a response to the original topic, other than single engine go arounds in light twins are never good, and you could always just put it down in the grass. But in response to n519at, my guess is a lot of damage. Thousand pound cow head on at 80 mph, prolly not good. Deer is not cow.

In the end the only thing i care about is my life, and lives of people on the ground. I dont care if i land gear up, or wreck an engine(or two). Fudge the airplane, and the boss.
 
Here's a systems/situational question my instructor asked me. It's one of those, "what if..." that goes on forever, has no right answer, no matter what you answer, you're wrong, I'm right. The point is to think critically, although, what the instructor would do is not the same as what I would do, hypothetically.

The need-to-know systems information: the critical engine of the Aztek F (PA-23-250) runs the hydraulic pump, used to lower the landing gear.

The situation: Weather is at minimums. You lose the critical engine and feather the prop. You are going to land at some airport (whether it has a tower, runway length, etc. are not specified). You don't have time to pump the gear down (it takes 50 pumps). You have the performance to execute a go-around, but only if the gear and flaps are up.

The gazillion dollar question:
Do you pump down the gear by hand, or leave the gear up to be able to go around in case you need to?

My first answer: Descend to DH/MDA with the gear and flaps up. Use the emergency CO2 to lower the gear when the runway's in sight and you know landing is assured.

1) On the Aztec... if you have the performance to do a single-engine go around, then you have PLENTY of TIME to pump down the landing gear. Especially if you are flying an approach to minimums. Chances are you have flown a full approach or have gotten vectors. It doesn't that THAT long to pump the gear down. Get the gear down and fly the approach just like you normally would.

2)You say weather is at minimums... if you break out and see a cow... decide to go-around... Are you not already below the minimums for the approach? Can you guarantee enough performance to be able to comply with all the requirements of flying the missed approach? Is there enough obstacle/terrain clearance?


Me... pump the gear down. Flaps at 0 or maybe 1/4... depending on how the airplane feels that day. Start the approach with the mindset of landing the airplane. If there happens to be a cow... oh well... hamburger and steaks for everyone!
 
.....Find an airport with a huge runway and better weather.......

This is the best answer........ And is this not what most of us would actually do, in this scenario? Find another BIG airport with better weather - sufficiently above minimums that wx would not cause a go-around - then pump the gear down, and commit to a landing there? Declare the emergency, tell the tower clear a runway for me, shoot the approach, and land. In the very unlikely event that something pulls out in front of you - or runs out onto - the runway, you land beyond it, or you land on an adjacent taxiway or some other - any other - piece of empty pavement. An Aztec don't need much pavement to land on.
 
I'd pull hard and kick a rudder, why waste time if you're gonna die anyway ;)

Seriously though, doesn't the co2 bottle blow the gear down in like 2 seconds? Break out, roll back upright, hang your middle finger out the storm window at the cow, blow the bottle and land, if it collapses oh well ;)


Sent from 1865 by telegraph....
 
This is the best answer........ And is this not what most of us would actually do, in this scenario? Find another BIG airport with better weather - sufficiently above minimums that wx would not cause a go-around - then pump the gear down, and commit to a landing there? Declare the emergency, tell the tower clear a runway for me, shoot the approach, and land. In the very unlikely event that something pulls out in front of you - or runs out onto - the runway, you land beyond it, or you land on an adjacent taxiway or some other - any other - piece of empty pavement. An Aztec don't need much pavement to land on.

So you're advocating a single engine go around in low ifr on a part 23 airplane then? From experience, the aztek has some SE climb performance, but you'd better be in a rather flat area. If the missed has a minimum climb performance.... you're not going meet it. Or am I understanding the scenario wrong?

Seriously though, who goes missed single engine in a light twin? It's an emergency, MDA/DA doesn't even apply anymore. Bust it all you need. The airplane will take the cow, the airplane will not take the mountain.
 
So you're advocating a single engine go around in low ifr on a part 23 airplane then?.......Seriously though, who goes missed single engine in a light twin? It's an emergency, MDA/DA doesn't even apply anymore. Bust it all you need. The airplane will take the cow, the airplane will not take the mountain.

No, I was saying exactly the same thing you are........ no S/E go-arounds......I am going to land, it's an emergency, any piece of suitable pavement will do.
 
I taught my students that if they pass the FAF in a light twin they are now dedicated to a landing. Cow our not.

If the approach was at ILS mins, they wouldn't see the cow till after they touched down unless it was standing on the numbers.
 
I taught my students that if they pass the FAF in a light twin they are now dedicated to a landing. Cow our not.

If the approach was at ILS mins, they wouldn't see the cow till after they touched down unless it was standing on the numbers.

That is very true. Money says this guy has never flown an approach to mins, or this question would not be coming up. LIGHTS!!! ;)
 
The cow's time has come. It has been ordained by the Sky Bully. Doubly true in the case of the Marching Band. We all wanted to kill them anyway, if we're being honest. Get it on the ground.
 
First thought without reading all the replies was go with my original training. Single-engine, approach to minimums, able to hold altitude - don't change a thing. Fly like a normal approach. Gear down at the FAF, flaps if able to hold altitude. Committed to a landing. Cow on the runway I either "sky hop" it à la Senator Inhofe or land long and go off the end of the runway at a slow speed.

After reading the comments the only thing that's changed is the "duh" factor of "oh yeah, I can hold altitude? Let's go somewhere VFR or with a better airport".

Go around single-engine? Unless I break out at minimums and there's a lake of fire on top of the airport I'd rather not.
 
there is a right answer and he is flat stupid. You land and go around the cow, because if there isn't enough runway after the cow you should be going slow enough to avoid it.
 
So, I was flying a practice ILS approach with my instructor and we were going to break it off early and do another one. He says, "Go visual. Ok, there's a cow on the runway, go missed." Bwa-hahahahahahaha. That totally busted me up.
 
Hit the cow. If for no other reason than to be one of the elite few who has gotten to report a cow-strike.
 
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