Aztek "what-if...?" What would you do?

When we were doing this kind of stuff in the sim my instructor was a little more creative... he would say that one of the emergency vehicles 'drifted' accidentally onto the runway... oops, go around. I liked it, it was creative at least.
 
It sounds like a completely moronic exercise.

You can "what if" a scenario into any corner based on any decision made. At some point, you just get past the point of the scenario actually teaching the point you want to make to the student. If the point is to test the pilot's systems knowledge...then fine. If the point is to test the pilot's decision making, in this scenario you're just badgering him for the sake of badgering him.

As a pilot, part of airmanship and judgment is assessing what you know and making reasonable predictions about likely outcomes...and then making a decision based on that. Sometimes you're right, and sometimes you're wrong -- but either way you're committed to handling the consequences of that decision. THAT is the true lesson in judgment and decisionmaking I'd want my student to learn.

If I pop out of the weather with the gear stuck down, unable to perform a single-engine go because of the performance and configuration, and there's a f'n cow on the runway, AND the runway is too short, AND I can't sidestep and land in the grass next to the runway, AND....

Well, hell...you're just having a righteously crappy day. In aviation, sometimes it's just not your day. Once you are committed, make the best, well-informed decisions you can, fly the airplane as far into the crash as you can, and hopefully you come out healthy. Iron is ALWAYS replaceable, even if "the boss" is pissed that you bent it.
 
In my opinion, every post on this thread outsmarted the instructor. Hacker is right, you can keep moving the goal posts infinitely in a scenario but given all the goalpost moving criteria laid out by the instructor....

Knowing something about both Aztecs and cattle, I agree with waiting for runway in sight, if you don't see a cow, blowdown the gear and land. If you don't actually SEE the cow then she's probably far enough down the runway to land and either stop in time or hit her with that long Aztec F beak that'll absorb a lot of energy. There's a good chance the cow will get spooked by the aircraft approaching anyway and move off the runway avoiding impact or down the runway minimizing it. Unnecessarily trashing 1 engine, possibly 2 props and an undercarriage on the one in 3,000 chance that there's a cow in the way seems ridiculous.
 
What kind of crappy airport has an ILS to a runway so short that you can't touch down before the cow and stop before hitting it, or touch down after it and stop before running off the end? What's ground roll on an Aztek, like 2000' MAX at max gross, with no flaps?
 
What kind of crappy airport has an ILS to a runway so short that you can't touch down before the cow and stop before hitting it, or touch down after it and stop before running off the end? What's ground roll on an Aztek, like 2000' MAX at max gross, with no flaps?
2000ft with no brakes :)
 
I have a fun story about the Aztec, its single hyd pump, and go around with one engine inoperative.

I will start, and end with this - its just not a good idea. If you have flaps and gear out when the left quits you will hit the ground at some point soon... I'd rather it be planned as a normal landing, then trying to make it fly without success again.
 
Why are you going into an uncontrolled airport One Engine Inop? Why are you shooting an approach to minimums One Engine Inop? I realize that in some cases that may be the only option, but your instructor basically loaded you into a scenario with no right answer (something the FOI books discourage). Basically, your instructor's "lesson" was about akin to asking Lindberg what he would have done if his engine quit. At night. And then his life raft deflated. And then his flashlight went out. And then his door jammed on impact.
 
Why are you going into an uncontrolled airport One Engine Inop? Why are you shooting an approach to minimums One Engine Inop? I realize that in some cases that may be the only option, but your instructor basically loaded you into a scenario with no right answer (something the FOI books discourage). Basically, your instructor's "lesson" was about akin to asking Lindberg what he would have done if his engine quit. At night. And then his life raft deflated. And then his flashlight went out. And then his door jammed on impact.

It's been really cool to read all of the responses, especially being new to JC (and to light twins). I think the point of my instructor's question was just to make me talk about reasoning through emergency decisions. Although, I admit that I am less than thrilled with the teaching method of using an infinite string of "what-ifs."

Anyway, my instructor told me his story of an emergency in a twin, in ifr, in mountainous terrain, where the non-critical engine was running, but not all all cylinders. He was with his CFI and if I recall the story correctly, they were on with ATC and had two options. The weather was horrible and it was snowing. They could land at an uncontrolled field, nearby, where the weather was automated, reporting ok but not current at that moment, or at a large airport with worse (but current) weather, slightly above minimums, with fire rescue and help from ATC. My instructor flew, his instructor handled the radio and the decision-making, and they elected to land at the towered airport. On short final the CFI took over and landed. So they did the right things and lived to tell the tale. Even during this, there was the decision to make of whether to keep the non-critical engine running or to shut it down, and they decided to keep it running.
 
was there a unicorn on the runway?
It's been really cool to read all of the responses, especially being new to JC (and to light twins). I think the point of my instructor's question was just to make me talk about reasoning through emergency decisions. Although, I admit that I am less than thrilled with the teaching method of using an infinite string of "what-ifs."

Anyway, my instructor told me his story of an emergency in a twin, in ifr, in mountainous terrain, where the non-critical engine was running, but not all all cylinders. He was with his CFI and if I recall the story correctly, they were on with ATC and had two options. The weather was horrible and it was snowing. They could land at an uncontrolled field, nearby, where the weather was automated, reporting ok but not current at that moment, or at a large airport with worse (but current) weather, slightly above minimums, with fire rescue and help from ATC. My instructor flew, his instructor handled the radio and the decision-making, and they elected to land at the towered airport. On short final the CFI took over and landed. So they did the right things and lived to tell the tale. Even during this, there was the decision to make of whether to keep the non-critical engine running or to shut it down, and they decided to keep it running.
 
No, it was eating the grass near the departure end, thank goodness. Then when the plane landed it reared up and ran off into the woods, never to be seen again.
 


In the Aztec, you can also pump the gear up.


Not if you used the co2, and it takes a fair amount of work.. same with the flaps... neither of which I want to do single engine really close to the ground.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
It's been really cool to read all of the responses, especially being new to JC (and to light twins). I think the point of my instructor's question was just to make me talk about reasoning through emergency decisions. Although, I admit that I am less than thrilled with the teaching method of using an infinite string of "what-ifs."

Anyway, my instructor told me his story of an emergency in a twin, in ifr, in mountainous terrain, where the non-critical engine was running, but not all all cylinders. He was with his CFI and if I recall the story correctly, they were on with ATC and had two options. The weather was horrible and it was snowing. They could land at an uncontrolled field, nearby, where the weather was automated, reporting ok but not current at that moment, or at a large airport with worse (but current) weather, slightly above minimums, with fire rescue and help from ATC. My instructor flew, his instructor handled the radio and the decision-making, and they elected to land at the towered airport. On short final the CFI took over and landed. So they did the right things and lived to tell the tale. Even during this, there was the decision to make of whether to keep the non-critical engine running or to shut it down, and they decided to keep it running.

I'm trying to think of an automated weather reporting station that isn't updated roughly every minute or so..... In general, ASOS is more current than ATIS.
 
I'm trying to think of an automated weather reporting station that isn't updated roughly every minute or so..... In general, ASOS is more current than ATIS.

Right, it updates every minute, but when Center is giving you the weather, do they have the latest weather or is there a lag? I'll ask my CFI about the specifics, maybe I'm remembering his story wrong.

Well, this is a good discussion because now I have several questions for my CFI, such as, what sort of a delay is there between tuning the ASOS and asking Center for the weather? Is it different if you are talking to a terminal or tower controller? I'm not finding anything of substance in the Weather Services AC.
 
Right, it updates every minute, but when Center is giving you the weather, do they have the latest weather or is there a lag? I'll ask my CFI about the specifics, maybe I'm remembering his story wrong.

Well, this is a good discussion because now I have several questions for my CFI, such as, what sort of a delay is there between tuning the ASOS and asking Center for the weather? Is it different if you are talking to a terminal or tower controller? I'm not finding anything of substance in the Weather Services AC.

Not sure how up to date center's weather is, but they're getting it from the ASOS as well....should be rather current. Just tune the ASOS, and get it yourself. Tower has the most recent weather(off the asos) and you can ask them for that instead of the ATIS, or rather any changes, especially if weather is rapidly changing, such as vis.
 
Back
Top