Avionics and iPad use at 135 freight companies?

[WS]

I will likely be relocating this summer due to my wife's PhD program internship requirements (location TBD), and will be trying to find some flavor of 135 freight job wherever I end up.

I have admittedly been spoiled the last few years flying G1000 aircraft, and have been wondering what sort of avionics would be installed in aircraft at companies like Ameriflight or similar outfits. I know that the general consensus is "not much," but it seems like in this day and age it would severely limit the capability of the aircraft to fly into many airports without at least some type of IFR approach capable GPS.

With the reputation of flying in crappy weather at night, is it common for companies to have any kind of weather equipment in their aircraft such as radar, strike-finder or even just FIS-B data?

Lastly, can anyone tell me which companies allow iPad use and how they are implemented? If I will be flying lots of IMC in crappy weather on a regular basis with minimal avionics, having an iPad with GPS and moving map with one of those stratus or similar devices with traffic and FIS-B weather would certainly seem to make it a bit safer. There's WAAY too many NTSB reports out there of departed freight dogs that something like this would have probably prevented.

Thanks!

 

[FlyByWire22]

The primary avionics, will be six pack steam gauges so get that scan polished up, I do believe their HSIs are slaved tho Amflight is in the process of giving their fleet Garmin touchscreens GTN750s I believe? Also, some have 430s in them already. @UAL747400 may have a better idea if he's not on a puerto rican beach somewhere with a rum punch

 

[Tommay85]

The primary avionics, will be six pack steam gauges so get that scan polished up, I do believe their HSIs are slaved tho Amflight is in the process of giving their fleet Garmin touchscreens GTN750s I believe? Also, some have 430s in them already. @UAL747400 may have a better idea if he's not on a puerto rican beach somewhere with a rum punch

Bah, we'really short in BQN now too! No more 2-3 day work weeks!

Everything down here is a 430 or 480 garmin. It's fully intigrated with the HSI and autopilot(with the FCS autopilots on the Metros and the autopilot on the brasilias at least). The 1900s are, sadly, the s-tec autopilots. Heading and altitude only. The s-tec can kind of track a nav, but it's sloppy.

Switching to electronic flight bags is something that's only being looked into right now. I'm not aware of anything official being implemented, but I'm out of the loop on the training department now. Flybywire mentioned the 750s and those are slowly going into the 99s and Metros. Which are very nice. SO nice to type instead of twist knobs.

In the states it's still mostly basic six packs. A few will have GPS. Even fewer will have autopilots and they will be s-tec. Though, I guess a descent autopilot is common on the Chieftain. Most of the Metros have them too I suppose.

Most of the Brasilias I imagine had that crappy FMS in them at some point. Of which probably had nothing for an international database, so they were replaced with 430s, but the operation/integration is exactly the same.

Most of the planes, 99 and up, have radar.

 

[WS]

Someone I know once compared the S-TEC autopilot to bringing along a student pilot to take the controls for you, which in my experience isn't that far off. They're better than nothing though I suppose.

In this day and age, it seems kind of crazy that companies are still flying /U aircraft since most people's phones even have GPS, but it sounds like there's still a few out there without it.

At any rate, thanks very much for the information!

 

[ahw01]

Interesting, I am glad to have only trained on steam gauges, though I know times are changing.

As an aside, I haven't seen this delay on the FAA mobile system before:

That sounds a whole lot of fun to hand-fly.

LAX
CAT I AND CAT II ONLY BELOW USER MINS

 

[FlyByWire22]

Bah, we'really short in BQN now too! No more 2-3 day work weeks!

Booooooooooo! No bueno senior

 

[Tommay85]

Booooooooooo! No bueno senior

Sí, es una mierda...

 

[DhruvK]

My company flies 99% steam gauges. Less than half the birds have GPS (KLN89B) and about the same spread have autopilots, with only one BE99 equipped with one. We just put our first G600/GTN stack bird on the line flying freight. It's a nice change, but as a 99 driver, I won't be seeing glass for the foreseeable future. I did my primary training and a good chunk of my IFR on steam gauges before CFIing in G1000 C172s and Avidyne PA44s for almost 4 years, but transitioning back to the six-pack was honestly like riding a bike.

 

[flyboy6585]

I will likely be relocating this summer due to my wife's PhD program internship requirements (location TBD), and will be trying to find some flavor of 135 freight job wherever I end up.

I have admittedly been spoiled the last few years flying G1000 aircraft, and have been wondering what sort of avionics would be installed in aircraft at companies like Ameriflight or similar outfits. I know that the general consensus is "not much," but it seems like in this day and age it would severely limit the capability of the aircraft to fly into many airports without at least some type of IFR approach capable GPS.

With the reputation of flying in crappy weather at night, is it common for companies to have any kind of weather equipment in their aircraft such as radar, strike-finder or even just FIS-B data?

Lastly, can anyone tell me which companies allow iPad use and how they are implemented? If I will be flying lots of IMC in crappy weather on a regular basis with minimal avionics, having an iPad with GPS and moving map with one of those stratus or similar devices with traffic and FIS-B weather would certainly seem to make it a bit safer. There's WAAY too many NTSB reports out there of departed freight dogs that something like this would have probably prevented.

Thanks!

Dude, if I am being honest, once you get used to flying the steam gauges and CDI/HSI...you don't need no stinkin GPS. In all reality, you shouldn't have needed them from day 1 of your instrument rating. Get off the GPS and fly the airplane. I know guys who have flown IFR across the US in a 152 with a single VOR and no DME....you can do it!

That said. Stateside planes (at least when I worked there 2 years ago) are mostly no GPS at least until you start getting into the turbine equipment. Then it is dependent on base and run. Some runs have a greater need for the GPS then others do, so what you get depends on what is available. 99 and up all have a WX radar...some are better than others. Autopilot availability also varies. You are the pilot...what you have in the cockpit is your deal. Unless you get ramp checked or line checked, then you better have everything up to date and available.

It isn't dangerous to not have GPS, autopilot, radar, moving maps, foreflight etc...you just have to follow the rules and procedures. Most of the freight dawgs that I know who have had incidents or crashed were due to flying in weather significantly beyond their or the aircraft's capabilities or fatigue. No amount of iPad/foreflight/GPS is going to save you from yourself. Trust your training, follow the rules, don't fly below mins, don't fly in weather that is beyond the capabilities of the aircraft, have options/outs, divert when necessary.

At AMF I flew GPS, LDA, LOC/BC, LOC, ILS, NDB, VOR, all to mins, some ended in circling, some where at night, some where in terrible weather, some ended up going missed, and some were visual and contact approaches. The point here is that you are the one who makes the flying safe, it isn't the plane, or the avionics, IT IS THE PILOT! That is why they are paying you.

 

[tbstanto]

Also, just because the airplane that you will fly may be one of the few to actually have a GPS, there is no assurance that it will be working. They can be deferred in most cases. You can show up to work and expect to have a GPS, and find it inop. Same goes with autopilot.

 

[Roger Roger]

Dude, if I am being honest, once you get used to flying the steam gauges and CDI/HSI...you don't need no stinkin GPS. In all reality, you shouldn't have needed them from day 1 of your instrument rating. Get off the GPS and fly the airplane. I know guys who have flown IFR across the US in a 152 with a single VOR and no DME....you can do it!

That said. Stateside planes (at least when I worked there 2 years ago) are mostly no GPS at least until you start getting into the turbine equipment. Then it is dependent on base and run. Some runs have a greater need for the GPS then others do, so what you get depends on what is available. 99 and up all have a WX radar...some are better than others. Autopilot availability also varies. You are the pilot...what you have in the cockpit is your deal. Unless you get ramp checked or line checked, then you better have everything up to date and available.

It isn't dangerous to not have GPS, autopilot, radar, moving maps, foreflight etc...you just have to follow the rules and procedures. Most of the freight dawgs that I know who have had incidents or crashed were due to flying in weather significantly beyond their or the aircraft's capabilities or fatigue. No amount of iPad/foreflight/GPS is going to save you from yourself. Trust your training, follow the rules, don't fly below mins, don't fly in weather that is beyond the capabilities of the aircraft, have options/outs, divert when necessary.

At AMF I flew GPS, LDA, LOC/BC, LOC, ILS, NDB, VOR, all to mins, some ended in circling, some where at night, some where in terrible weather, some ended up going missed, and some were visual and contact approaches. The point here is that you are the one who makes the flying safe, it isn't the plane, or the avionics, IT IS THE PILOT! That is why they are paying you.

Let's just go back to the days of needle, ball, and airspeed and four course ranges while we're at it.

 

[flyboy6585]

Let's just go back to the days of needle, ball, and airspeed and four course ranges while we're at it.

My point is that you generally do not need a GPS any other advanced avionics to fly from one point to another. Needing a glass cockpit with redundant WAAS GPS units coupled to a 3 axis autopilot and an iPad loaded with every chart and plate in America as well as a internal GPS, and a handheld GPS just to feel "safe" flying IFR seems overkill. If that's what it takes to feel safe you might as well get rid of the props in favor of turbo fans, add a second pilot, and only fly on sunny days. I don't deny that having such avionics might be nice and at times save you workload, not to mention the added fuel savings of "direct" and added capability of GPS approaches. GPS, along with wx radar, strikefinders, nexrad, deicing/anti-icing, etc can increase the utility of the aircraft. They are not, however, a requirement for the safe operation of an aircraft as long as you respect the limitations that come with their absence.

Use the tools you have, to do the job you are given, in the safest manner possible. If you don't have to tools you need then don't do the job. If you have a table with a loose phillips screw and you have a phillips screwdriver, you should be able to tighten said screw...not feeling able to tighten said screw without a 300 dollar dewalt drill and steel toed shoes seems silly.

 

[WS]

Dude, if I am being honest, once you get used to flying the steam gauges and CDI/HSI...you don't need no stinkin GPS. In all reality, you shouldn't have needed them from day 1 of your instrument rating. Get off the GPS and fly the airplane. I know guys who have flown IFR across the US in a 152 with a single VOR and no DME....you can do it!

That said. Stateside planes (at least when I worked there 2 years ago) are mostly no GPS at least until you start getting into the turbine equipment. Then it is dependent on base and run. Some runs have a greater need for the GPS then others do, so what you get depends on what is available. 99 and up all have a WX radar...some are better than others. Autopilot availability also varies. You are the pilot...what you have in the cockpit is your deal. Unless you get ramp checked or line checked, then you better have everything up to date and available.

It isn't dangerous to not have GPS, autopilot, radar, moving maps, foreflight etc...you just have to follow the rules and procedures. Most of the freight dawgs that I know who have had incidents or crashed were due to flying in weather significantly beyond their or the aircraft's capabilities or fatigue. No amount of iPad/foreflight/GPS is going to save you from yourself. Trust your training, follow the rules, don't fly below mins, don't fly in weather that is beyond the capabilities of the aircraft, have options/outs, divert when necessary.

At AMF I flew GPS, LDA, LOC/BC, LOC, ILS, NDB, VOR, all to mins, some ended in circling, some where at night, some where in terrible weather, some ended up going missed, and some were visual and contact approaches. The point here is that you are the one who makes the flying safe, it isn't the plane, or the avionics, IT IS THE PILOT! That is why they are paying you.

I certainly don't have a problem flying IFR without GPS, saw very little GPS until I started instructing in the G1000 aircraft. My instrument check-ride was done with dual VOR, no DME or HSI. The first time I flew IFR with the G1000 felt like I was cheating on a final exam!

You can't deny the fact that not having GPS could limit your options though. Some airports just don't have anything other than RNAV approaches, and for those that do have options, an LPV could get you into that airport where a VOR approach would have you looking at alternates. Weather or not that translates very often into actual diversions you would know better than me.

I would have to disagree with you that GPS doesn't add a certain margin of safety to things. I have had ILS receivers crap out while on an approach, where the only indications I got were that both needles stayed centered. I thought I was doing a great job flying the approach until the tower controller asked me why I was 1/2 mile left of course at about 800 to minimums in IMC. Needless to say I now make sure to have BOTH receivers tuned to the localizer (something you CAN'T do with G1000 since you only have one HSI). And before you ask, yes it was tuned and ID'd, I put the other one on the same freq and saw full scale deflection. There was a legitimate failure of the NAV 1 radio, but no flags. While this is something I should have done in the first place, it was a lesson learned by experience which could have ended badly if I had been in a non-radar environment or if that controller hadn't been paying attention. Who knows if having a GPS would have changed anything.

As far as the iPad, they sure make finding charts and plates a whole lot easier and that moving map could prevent someone's bad day or stupid mistake from being a tragic one for the price of something I already have that's bought and paid for. Sure I can fly without it and would have no problem with doing it, but if I had the choice I would prefer to have it. Never before have we been able to have a moving map, traffic and weather information available in an airplane for under a thousand bucks, but that's the world we live in. Do we NEED it, no. But I really don't see any downside to having it, I was just wanting to know the likelihood that I would be allowed to USE it in the 135 environment.

 

[tbstanto]

If you are looking for old airplanes with little in the way of automation/navigation, and are not expecting to have GPS, then part 135 freight is the place for you!

Most are single pilot IFR, and you can use an iPad if you want, as there is no one next to you to complain about it. I personally had a ADSB receiver (Stratus 2) and an iPad. It was great for helping determine weather a few hundred miles in front of us when radar would not reach, and to give a general picture of the weather. I would not consider it reliable enough to try to pick my way through a line of thunderstorms with it, but it was a help in overall situational awareness. More than anything, however, it was just a novelty. It gave me something to play with when I was bored.

Part 135 cargo is all about routing (in most cases). Typically, you fly the same run, day after day. You shoot the same approaches every single day, and only go to a handful of airports. Finding the plates aren't difficult, as you use the same ones every day. After a month, I could tell you the ILS frequencies and airport elevations of every runway that I flew to.

 

[Monk]

Pah, avionics... Be happy if you have oil pressure.

 

[tbstanto]

Pah, avionics... Be happy if you have oil pressure.

2 engines.....one will make us go, and the other is just for show. Why do you need 2 engines?!?! MEL that thing and block out on time.

 

[Sol Rosenburg]

If the read backs over the radio don't sound like their mike is being drug down the interstate at 80 and I can understand them I'm starting to have a great day.

 

[flyboy6585]

I certainly don't have a problem flying IFR without GPS, saw very little GPS until I started instructing in the G1000 aircraft. My instrument check-ride was done with dual VOR, no DME or HSI. The first time I flew IFR with the G1000 felt like I was cheating on a final exam!

You can't deny the fact that not having GPS could limit your options though. Some airports just don't have anything other than RNAV approaches, and for those that do have options, an LPV could get you into that airport where a VOR approach would have you looking at alternates. Weather or not that translates very often into actual diversions you would know better than me.

I would have to disagree with you that GPS doesn't add a certain margin of safety to things. I have had ILS receivers crap out while on an approach, where the only indications I got were that both needles stayed centered. I thought I was doing a great job flying the approach until the tower controller asked me why I was 1/2 mile left of course at about 800 to minimums in IMC. Needless to say I now make sure to have BOTH receivers tuned to the localizer (something you CAN'T do with G1000 since you only have one HSI). And before you ask, yes it was tuned and ID'd, I put the other one on the same freq and saw full scale deflection. There was a legitimate failure of the NAV 1 radio, but no flags. While this is something I should have done in the first place, it was a lesson learned by experience which could have ended badly if I had been in a non-radar environment or if that controller hadn't been paying attention. Who knows if having a GPS would have changed anything.

As far as the iPad, they sure make finding charts and plates a whole lot easier and that moving map could prevent someone's bad day or stupid mistake from being a tragic one for the price of something I already have that's bought and paid for. Sure I can fly without it and would have no problem with doing it, but if I had the choice I would prefer to have it. Never before have we been able to have a moving map, traffic and weather information available in an airplane for under a thousand bucks, but that's the world we live in. Do we NEED it, no. But I really don't see any downside to having it, I was just wanting to know the likelihood that I would be allowed to USE it in the 135 environment.

I don't deny that not having GPS limits your options of getting into airports. That doesn't make it unsafe though, it just means you have to divert. I have had 3 times where having/not having a GPS had an impact on getting into an airport. Bottom line is that cargo operators make money by completing their contract, so if a run has an operational need for a GPS you will probably have a GPS.

I too have had needles stick. I learned about that during my instrument training when the 172 showed a slight 1/4 dot deflection up the whole approach. My instructor finally had me pull off the hood and we were more or less over the runway at 800'. Solution (and I say this with all sincerity and apply this to this day) I don't let needles 'stop' anywhere for too long. Usually my general lack of pilot skill will allow the needles to drift up/down and left/right slightly throughout the approach. If, however, the flying stars align and it appears that I am riding the ILS perfectly...I make a slight climbing turn. Not much, a degree of pitch and a degree or two of heading for a few seconds should get the needle to move a little bit, then I cancel out those corrections and continue. In theory, electronic needles don't have those issues, but I am still suspicious anytime it seems like I am perfectly maintaining any needle position.

I actually had a DPE ask me about that a ride, we were flying an approach into some podunk airport with an ILS. It was one of those approaches that only comes around once in a while...everything was centered...not even a hint of movement from the needles. I made the comment to the effect of, "I don't like this, lets get these things moving," and made a very slight climb and turn. Everything moved, and I put the needles more or less back in the center and landed. He asked me after the flight what I meant by that comment and why I was purposely destabilizing a perfect approach. I told him my experiences from the 172 had led me to never trust still needles. He told me of several experiences he had back in the day flying C141s in the air force that were similar but that he had never thought about forcing them to move. Passed the ride to fly another day.

 

[EIR]

Dude, if I am being honest, once you get used to flying the steam gauges and CDI/HSI...you don't need no stinkin GPS. In all reality, you shouldn't have needed them from day 1 of your instrument rating. Get off the GPS and fly the airplane. I know guys who have flown IFR across the US in a 152 with a single VOR and no DME....you can do it!

That's just silly. Why limit yourself? I've flown my share of /U & /A freight planes, I sure as hell would not go back and navigate solely on NDBs and VORs.

 

[Tommay85]

That's just silly. Why limit yourself? I've flown my share of /U & /A freight planes, I sure as hell would not go back and navigate solely on NDBs and VORs.

I can't wait for the day I'm flying something with a full modern avionics/automation suite! This old crap BLOWS!