I believe it was the altitude.
ATR 72 Crash in Brazil
- Thread starter touch-n-go
- Start date
In December 2010, the IACC stated that the analysis of the flight recorders did not highlight any technical problem with the ATR 72. The airplane encountered severe icing conditions at 20,000 feet (6,100 m), which were not handled properly, leading to the crash.[3]
Aero Caribbean Flight 883 - Wikipedia
///AMG
Well-Known Member
That must have sucked. We forget what life was like before cell phones. I still have no idea how my friends and I ever managed to arrive somewhere at the same time to hang out back then
Another navy buddy of mine had a dad who worked in the part of the pentagon that AA77 impacted. Probably not super well known, but it was a particularly sensitive part of the building. Anyway, he had stepped out to go grab a morning coffee and happened to not be at his desk when it happened. He had to call for a ride home because his car keys were at his desk which was incinerated.
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
So, we can ignore Alaskan mythology?
One of the types I fly has a heated wing but boots on the tail. The current guidance from the manufacturer is when the ice detector pings just turn everything on and let it run until you are clear of icing.
So far I ain’t dead but that tail gives me the willies back there where I can’t see it.
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
What type is that?
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
The PC12’s big brother. It’s super versatile.
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
It is, however an AOA gauge would not accurately display the AOA that a contaminated airfoil is experiencing. The AOA vane is heated for one. But also would have no way of calculating the degree to which the wing is contaminated and then display that in a useful way to the crew.
Best bet would’ve been finding warmer air, if icing was in fact the genesis of this accident. I don’t know what the terrain is like in São Paulo but maybe a descent wasn’t possible. There will be a lot to learn from this accident.
In the 737 we treat wing anti-ice like boots, using it only when ice is accumulating on the leading edge. (Might be a company thing as opposed to a Boeing thing).
I have flown a bunch of turboprops over the years. The Dornier wing antiice was automatic. Turn it on and forget it.
The Saab 340a had a couple of speeds, but when you saw ice you got out of it pretty quickly because the A model didn’t have enough thrust to get out of its own way when it started icing up.
The Jetstream 31 was pretty good. Except the Kevlar straps were right behind your head so when you got into ice it always reminded me of that scene from “Airplane 2”. “The sounds you are hearing are meteors smashing against the hull of the ship”
Ice is no joke. Almost killed me when I was a freight dog in the 90s flying cancelled checks in a T-tail Piper Lance.
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
Being on reserve sucked.That must have sucked. We forget what life was like before cell phones. I still have no idea how my friends and I ever managed to arrive somewhere at the same time to hang out back then
At the house we bought distinctive ring and that’s the number we gave scheduling. Wife knew if she heard that ring don’t answer the phone.
Getting a pager was huge because we weren’t tied to the house anymore. Scheduling would inevitably beep me when I was between two exits on the highway 30 miles apart and then I had 15 minutes to locate a pay phone and call them back.
#ludicrousspeed (in my 1987 Nissan Maxima)
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
You're old.
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
Believe me. I'm aware.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
That must have sucked. We forget what life was like before cell phones. I still have no idea how my friends and I ever managed to arrive somewhere at the same time to hang out back then
Another navy buddy of mine had a dad who worked in the part of the pentagon that AA77 impacted. Probably not super well known, but it was a particularly sensitive part of the building. Anyway, he had stepped out to go grab a morning coffee and happened to not be at his desk when it happened. He had to call for a ride home because his car keys were at his desk which was incinerated.
We both had cell phones but my father rarely used his - I don’t think I even had his number.
It was crazy, the double whammy, the office at the Pentagon and the IAD to LAX flight.
As the events unfolded I was in the dentist chair for a couple of hours letting a dental student replace all my silver fillings. I was getting updated by the dental staff. The room had a dozen chairs so I heard details in various conversations. I had a delayed reaction because somebody had said that it was the State Department that had been hit, not the Pentagon. After my dental appointment, I learned the Pentagon had been hit. That raised my hackles. Then, after getting myself in front of a TV I learned it was a DCA-LAX flight that hit the Pentagon. My heart stopped.
If it was a perfect made-for-TV script he would have flown the same AA77 flight the preceding day. I never asked him about his flight details.
We lost a family friend that was on the aircraft that hit the Pentagon.
Having spun, by accident, a Seneca I, it is one of the most terrifying things feeling when none of the control are responding and all you think about hoping it doesn’t hurt for too long when you hit. I’m super glad spin training was required to becoming a CFI because otherwise, when you see your first one, it’s game over.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I wouldn't solo any of my students until they did spins. The last thing I wanted was for them to find out what it looked like for the first time on their own, especially while on base to final.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
I 100% endorse this. Taking a straight and level pilot up for acro, and the first reaction is usually "whoa... *long pause* what just happened."
Airplanes are all-attitude vehicles. Training in a single regime will lead to extreme disorientation when tshtf.
My only thought for something like this is a hail mary like making a PA for all passengers to run to the front of the aircraft or we're all going to die. But at a certain amount of rotational energy it just won't matter.
For the record, this is why I train my students to break the stall as a first reaction, and don't stomp on the rudder.
This all may have nothing whatsoever to do with this accident, but it's a subject near and dear to my heart.
That’s good. Man, if that’s the first time they see one, they’re toast.
True this. Never got to fly the T-tail Lance in cargo, only the straight tail Lance, and messing with icing in it was not to be taken lightly at all. Solid plane though
In the video shown, the spin isn’t very accelerated, but the stalled condition isn’t being corrected (if even able to be, barring some other issue).
While civvie spin training for Private and CFI was generally ok and sufficient, some of the best spinning machines were in the mil: the Cessna T-37 for the AF and the Rockwell T-2 Buckeye for the USN. The T-37 would sit in whatever spin condition you entered it into and left it at. It would neither help you recover, nor would it make matters worse. It would just patiently wait for the pilot to solve the problem. Spin bold was straightforward: Idle, Neutral, Aft. Rudder opposite spin direction or turn needle, stick abruptly full forward to break the stall (avoiding tumbling inverted), recover from dive.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Similarly, the DHC-8 was also a good ice hauler. Well designed system & a good airframe for cold climates. AC didn't work for for poop until the later serial -100s and the -200s. The -100s always ran out of ooommmfff about 13k in the summer. Great airplane for MSP, not so much for CLT.
The night that Sen. Paul Wellstone died in the Kingair accident up in MN was probably the worst I ever saw. Even hot wing airplanes were reporting moderate.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Base to final spin? It’s probably game over at that altitude.
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Uhhh base to final it doesn’t matter if you’re a spin expert. Probably not going to make it out of that. Your “exposure” to your students was probably a waste of time and money at that stage of training.
greg1016
Trustworthy Source
VoePass ATR 72 crashes near São Paulo | Flightradar24 Blog
A VoePass ATR 72 crashed near São Paulo on 9 August 2024. The flight was operating from Cascavel to São Paulo.
www.flightradar24.com
They are reporting that the ground speed data from ADS-B was known to be unreliable. This blog post includes the true airspeed reported presumably from ads-b. I did not know that was a thing, but then again I'd have no reason to know that it was a thing either.
Thunderstorms are bad.