knot4u
Repeat Offender
Thank you, I hadn't considered that. What's the procedure when you're all iced up in an airplane like that, is there one? Is it firewall everything, drop the nose and hope for warmer air?
ATR 72 Crash in Brazil
- Thread starter touch-n-go
- Start date
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I never flew a turboprop that big, they may very well have an approved procedure. In the ones I flew it was basically "use your best judgment and land if you think you need to".
knot4u
Repeat Offender
So what you're saying is you'd firewall everything, drop the nose and hope for warmer air?
FlyingAccountant
Well-Known Member
I looked, wish I hadn't. Almost as bad as those videos after MH17 crashed in Ukraine.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
They may not have been able to drop the nose.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I didn’t see anything other than the spin video and an overview of the crash site.
FlyingAccountant
Well-Known Member
There's a close up video of the cockpit area after it crashed where you can clearly see a body sprawled out on the ground on fire. I'd link it, but I'm on my work computer.
Airplane was surprisingly intact given the circumstances, but I suppose that's the product of a flat spin as opposed to a high energy dive.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Just keep flipping the pages of your POH, there should be a page with V-Speeds for iced-up conditions. [sarcasm]
knot4u
Repeat Offender
That's the worst possible scenario, and it might be what actually happened. My local news reported they found the orange (they're not black) boxes and they're in good condition. Maybe we'll be able to learn from this tragedy.
knot4u
Repeat Offender
Shouldn't that be part of the certification for flight in known icing and at least addressed in the QRH?Just keep flipping the pages of your POH, there should be a page with V-Speeds for iced-up conditions.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I hope this doesn’t turn into a thread where we debate whether to hit the boots early or late in the accumulation cycle.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Quite often. Not always. For example, if you're at 7k and the tops are reported at 8k, you might cash in some energy to go see if you can pop out of the moisture before you slow down dangerously. Or if there is a temperature inversion, it might make sense to climb into warmer air.
But yeah, I'd say most of the time if you've started slowing down enough that critical AOA is even starting to be a consideration, the best move is to go down and start looking for a place to land right now.
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
The Q400 could handle a literal ish-ton…more than what you were comfortable it handling. (Got into moderate to severe one time, Q was like “ok”)
It had auto cycle boots, a slow and fast setting (it was like 3 mins for a cycle on slow, 1 min in fast).
Props were heated at the same time (all 6 blades, unlike the -100/200/300), which made for a fun “baseball bat” sound on the Kevlar belt around the fuselage.
If you got into heavy icing, it was AP off, props to max and get into better temps.
It had auto cycle boots, a slow and fast setting (it was like 3 mins for a cycle on slow, 1 min in fast).
Props were heated at the same time (all 6 blades, unlike the -100/200/300), which made for a fun “baseball bat” sound on the Kevlar belt around the fuselage.
If you got into heavy icing, it was AP off, props to max and get into better temps.
knot4u
Repeat Offender
I still don't understand why AOA isn't the most prominent thing, because in reality it's the most important thing.
“Although the limiting severity of icing conditions in which an aircraft can be operated vary, low performance aircraft are likely to be exposed to relatively more risk in flight through whatever icing conditions prevail. This factor alone tends to distinguish the significance of ‘routine’ icing exposure for jets versus turboprops. Whilst both may be similarly certificated for “flight in icing conditions”, the effects of light or moderate icing is greatly reduced if less time is spent in it. However if a low performance aircraft and a high performance aircraft fly the same trajectory through a portion of airspace containing light or moderate icing conditions, very similar amounts of ice will potentially accrete on both aircraft by the time they leave the icing conditions. The ice potentially accreting depends on the integral along the path of the aircraft of the liquid water content. For a given aircraft flying a given trajectory, increasing the airspeed will cause a higher proportion of the liquid water to accrete to the aircraft. Note though that if a high powered aircraft can climb more steeply than a low powered aircraft, and hence exit the icing layer in less time, the two trajectories are different and the high powered aircraft may well accrete less liquid water than the low powered aircraft. Additionally, the use of jet engine bleed air for anti-icing is much more effective than the cycling of pneumatic boots installed on the leading edges of most turboprops. However, many aircraft certified for 'flight in icing conditions' do not have that term defined at its extreme and even in jet transports, severe icing should almost always be avoided - or exited promptly if unexpectedly encountered.”
[bold added]
skybrary.aero
[bold added]
Aircraft and In Flight Icing Risks | SKYbrary Aviation Safety
Description Flight in ‘icing conditions’ brings two risks which are independent of each other. These are the possibility of ice accreting on the airframe and the possibility of ice affecting the normal operation of the powerplant(s) fitted to the airframe (because of ice formation in or around...
skybrary.aero
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Early.
There is no such thing as bridging. - NASA
But according to NASA and Boeing they had a working spacecraft so there’s that.
Those two have been slacking. Of course, there is a good amount of big stuff, even things like international incident aircraft accidents, that don’t make the national news.