ATP Seminole Crash
- Thread starter stillageek
- Start date
JOEFRIDAY2
Well-Known Member
Here is the link to the 2007 plane crash over the same practice area.
Same story. Two planes ran into each other in the sky over the practice area during the same Saturday in December.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071227X02001&key=2
Same story. Two planes ran into each other in the sky over the practice area during the same Saturday in December.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071227X02001&key=2
atpwannabe
Well-Known Member
Everytime I hear about something like this.....my eyes always tear up. It just breaks my heart to hear this news. My deepest and most heartfelt condolences to their families and to Pelican Flight School and ATP.
May the souls of Stuart, Edson, Andrew & Bryan REST in PEACE and RISE IN PERFECT GLORY!!!!
High Flight and eternal blue skies.
Marcus
May the souls of Stuart, Edson, Andrew & Bryan REST in PEACE and RISE IN PERFECT GLORY!!!!
High Flight and eternal blue skies.
Marcus
WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
I'm a little slow, so I'm just hearing the news. I remember "Toilet Paper", having flown it several times when I was in training. It's always sad when you hear of an accident, especially when there is loss of life. 
vdsteelman
Well-Known Member
This bothers me that it took almost a full day to realize that the planes had crashed. I'm not familiar with the area they were in, but by reading up on previous posts, it seems that it was a pretty busy practice area. Also, why didn't the ELT's alert? Is it possible that an ELT can be damaged so bad that it becomes inoperable? I know that the occupants were probably doomed from the start, but it would be comforting to know that all your emergency equipment will work God forbid something tragic like this happens to one of us.
UndauntedFlyer
Well-Known Member
This is a most tragic accident and it is something we all fear as CFI's. I am not familiar with the FLL area but it seems that the FAA needs to be better involved in providing some type of CTAF frequency and a dedicated radar controller to oversee and provide radar services for training aircraft in high density areas. If that was the case, then this accident and the one last year may not have happened.
Could someone who might be familiar with that area please answer the following questions?
1. Is there a CTAF type frequency that has been either formally or informally established for training aircraft that operate in that practice area?
2. Is it practical to use approach control or center radar for advisories when in that area?
3. Various new relatively inexpensive airborne collision avoidance systems are being used more and more in high density areas, why aren’t these systems being used in the small training aircraft?
Could someone who might be familiar with that area please answer the following questions?
1. Is there a CTAF type frequency that has been either formally or informally established for training aircraft that operate in that practice area?
2. Is it practical to use approach control or center radar for advisories when in that area?
3. Various new relatively inexpensive airborne collision avoidance systems are being used more and more in high density areas, why aren’t these systems being used in the small training aircraft?
anything can be damaged enough to become inoperable. i dont think if i put a wrist watch in a hydraulic press it would survive. same goes for something catching fire, or falling a couple thousand feet, or being submerged in a swampy muck. tragic nonetheless, i flew in that area for my MEI and that was it. still hits pretty close to home being an ATP grad. anythings possible, and i don't want to imagine what it was like on the way down if they survived the initial impact. RIP
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
I watched a news video the morning after the accident, it was helicopter footage of the airboats coming to the scene. ELT's were screaming in the background audio of the whole video.
So I ask the question, how many of you monitor 121.5? I guess I should, but the only time I do is when approach cannot make contact with an aircraft.
What about black boxes? They seem to fare well in fires, crashes and water damage. Maybe ELT's should be made more like them. If they are not already made that way. They are both important items.
Ben
BillH
New Member
You should of seen him at Stuart before a Patriots game
JOEFRIDAY2
Well-Known Member
Here are the answers:
1. There is a CTAF frequency over the practice area. The problem is that not everyone uses it and some of those that do give an improper location.
2. I don't know. There is a lot of activity there.
3. Our school does have the collision avoidance sytems on their planes. That's the good news. The bad news is that they go off a lot while you are in the practice area because there are so many planes. So you kind of get used to the audio spouting off "traffic"
i saw that video also, and i heard the ELT's, which did make me wonder why they weren't reported missing until the next day. but then i saw another news video of a woman saying she was 3 miles from the crash site, and said something that contradicted the original timeline... i forget what was said exactly.
anyways, i was merely focusing on the inoperable comment - of course it can be damaged bad enough to stop working. black boxes are more reluctant to damage yes (although still destroyable) but maybe ELT's should be made with more protection.
i trained at ATP in PHX. It was a good school, with good instructors (most of them). PHX is a very busy area as well. i had a few near-misses. sad to hear something like this. it is a good oportunity for all of us to step back and ask ourselfs if we are keeping a good eye out for other traffic. don't forget to keep you eyes outside while doing inst. training.
as far as the black box thing goes, i think the reason we don't use them in GA airplanes is because of the cost. TIS is a good service to have, but it's not always availible. the SP i used to fly had TIS, and it worked about 30% of the time. it also would go off while doing steep turns, thinking that I was the traffic. as was stated earlier, when working in a high densit traffic area, you almost take a deft ear to the "TRAFFIC" aleart that it gives out, because you hear it so much. bottom line is see and avoid. and thats where i think the problem was here. Low wing seminole on top, high wing cessna on the bottom, both practicing the same hold. I have a feeling neither one of them never knew they were there.
keep your eyes peeled, make frequent position reports, and if you hear someone on your alt. and your not sure of where they are, change your altitude. what we flight instructors do is a very dangerous job, some say the most dangerous flying job there is. take that into consideration while flying, and reduce the risk of this.
my heart and prayers go out to the families and friends of those who knew these unfortunate souls. they have slipped the surley bonds of earth, and touched the face of god. next time you are doing a run-up, before you move onto the taxi-way, stop and observe a moment of silence for our fallen airmen who have given the ultimate sacrafice for a dream we all share.
as far as the black box thing goes, i think the reason we don't use them in GA airplanes is because of the cost. TIS is a good service to have, but it's not always availible. the SP i used to fly had TIS, and it worked about 30% of the time. it also would go off while doing steep turns, thinking that I was the traffic. as was stated earlier, when working in a high densit traffic area, you almost take a deft ear to the "TRAFFIC" aleart that it gives out, because you hear it so much. bottom line is see and avoid. and thats where i think the problem was here. Low wing seminole on top, high wing cessna on the bottom, both practicing the same hold. I have a feeling neither one of them never knew they were there.
keep your eyes peeled, make frequent position reports, and if you hear someone on your alt. and your not sure of where they are, change your altitude. what we flight instructors do is a very dangerous job, some say the most dangerous flying job there is. take that into consideration while flying, and reduce the risk of this.
my heart and prayers go out to the families and friends of those who knew these unfortunate souls. they have slipped the surley bonds of earth, and touched the face of god.
next time you are doing a run-up, before you move onto the taxi-way, stop and observe a moment of silence for our fallen airmen who have given the ultimate sacrafice for a dream we all share.UndauntedFlyer
Well-Known Member
JoeFriday2:
Thanks for your reply. I have heard from another source that the frequency used for CTAF in the practice area around FLL is 123.45. This is nice if everyone uses it. I would guess that this CTAF on 123.45 is not an official use for that frequency.
As far as using FLL approach control for radar services, I have heard that some of the schools and some individuals have asked the FAA to dedicate a special approach control frequency along with a dedicated controller to provide radar advisories. I heard that the result of the request was no action from the FAA. Do you or does anyone know if that did happen?
Thanks for your reply. I have heard from another source that the frequency used for CTAF in the practice area around FLL is 123.45. This is nice if everyone uses it. I would guess that this CTAF on 123.45 is not an official use for that frequency.
As far as using FLL approach control for radar services, I have heard that some of the schools and some individuals have asked the FAA to dedicate a special approach control frequency along with a dedicated controller to provide radar advisories. I heard that the result of the request was no action from the FAA. Do you or does anyone know if that did happen?
BillH
New Member
Basically you are asking the FAA to take responsibility of anything that happens in the practice area, they do NOT want that responsibility, just as a controller wants absolutely nothing to do with you once your outside their sector. It is not because they are lazy or careless, it is because of the lawyers.
SatelliteBeachPilot
Well-Known Member
^Bingo.
UndauntedFlyer
Well-Known Member
Yep, you're right. I would guess that some insurance company will pay millions to the families of the innocent victims. This accident was so preventable! Very simply, no one was looking out the window.
