ATP Second In Command Type Rating

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thegriffinpages

AKA "Icicles"
Under Part 121, a First Officer needs an ATP with a Second In Command (SIC) Type Rating.

Is that SIC Type Rating the same thing as having a Restricted ATP?


I ask this because I'm studying for my Aircraft Dispatch Certification. Some of the questions they ask are about things like approach minimums based on the pilot's hours.

Also, would the airlines try to make schedules so they a newer ATP would fly with a more qualified ATP, so they don't have to worry about being legal for approaches?

Thanks! Sorry if this is a dumb question. I'm not a pilot!
 
There is no SIC type rating, only type ratings.

Under the new legislation all part 121 pilots are required to have a type rating in the airplane they operate, whereas before only the captain was required to have a type rating and ATP. Previously FOs, were only required to have a Commercial Multi, though many would get a full ATP as they hit the required gates to do so.

A R-ATP simply means you can be SIC in a part 121 operation, but not a captain, you must still have a type rating.

A full ATP means you can be a captain.

There are many "full up" ATPs that are also FOs, for ex. I got my R-ATP at 800 hours with the military carve out, when I hit 1500 hours of flying time, I converted it to a full ATP even though I am still an FO, the type rating had nothing to do with it.

As for approaches;

There are three factors in whether an approach can be shot

1. The plane. We can not shoot an RNP approach because our airplanes are not certified for RNP approaches, therefore the crews do not receive this training.

2. The crew. My airline is a Cat 2 airline, but we can only shoot a Cat 2 approach if the plane is able to, and both crew members have had Cat 2 approach training in the previous year.

3. The airport. The airport must have all required equipment working to support the approach. For ex. if there is no touchdown RVR, then there will be no Cat 2 approaches available.

There are also high mins captains and special qualification airports, those have their own restrictions as spelled out in your carriers FOM that you as a dispatcher and we as pilots both follow.

This is all under part 121 operations in the United States, other aviation governing bodies and country aviation authorities operate under different rules. Needed to clarify if you are not studying to be a dispatcher in the US.
 
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Soku39 said:
There is no SIC type rating, only type ratings.

Under the new legislation all part 121 pilots are required to have a type rating in the airplane they operate, whereas before only the captain was required to have a type rating and ATP. Previously FOs, were only required to have a Commercial Multi, though many would get a full ATP as they hit the required gates to do so.

A R-ATP simply means you can be SIC in a part 121 operation, but not a captain, you must still have a type rating.

A full ATP means you can be a captain.

There are many "full up" ATPs that are also FOs, for ex. I got my R-ATP at 800 hours with the military carve out, when I hit 1500 hours of flying time, I converted it to a full ATP even though I am still an FO, the type rating had nothing to do with it.

As for approaches;

There are three factors in whether an approach can be shot

1. The plane. We can not shoot an RNP approach because our airplanes are not certified for RNP approaches, therefore the crews do not receive this training.

2. The crew. My airline is a Cat 2 airline, but we can only shoot a Cat 2 approach if the plane is able to, and both crew members have had Cat 2 approach training in the previous year.

3. The airport. The airport must have all required equipment working to support the approach. For ex. if there is no touchdown RVR, then there will be no Cat 2 approaches available.

There are also high mins captains and special qualification airports, those have their own restrictions as spelled out in your carriers FOM that you as a dispatcher and we as pilots both follow.

This is all under part 121 operations in the United States, other aviation governing bodies and country aviation authorities operate under different rules. Needed to clarify if you are not studying to be a dispatcher in the US.
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Thank you!

This is what I had thought I understood, then (as you probably know) the FAA likes to reword/change slightly some questions and it made me want further explanation.

And yes, I’m looking to operate as an Aircraft Dispatcher in the US.
 
The SIC type rating was a thing a few years ago, based on an ICAO rule that airline pilots needed a type rating. As usual, the US tried to do it differently, but was forced to change it. Any FO who had one, had to take type ride to upgrade it at their next recurrent. Because I left the 737 before the rule change, I still have an SIC type rating on my certificate. It means absolutely nothing.

All new FOs now do a full type ride on their initial checkout.

image.jpg
 
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There are type ratings with SIC only privileges, although no longer part of the 121 world. Still common in the 91/135 industry. Some operators let new hires acquire SIC ratings during their probation period then a full PIC later when the company knows or believes that the employee won't take the new type and run out the door with it.
 
Cptnchia said:
The SIC type rating was a thing a few years ago, based on an ICAO rule that airline pilots needed a type rating. As usual, the US tried to do it differently, but was forced to change it. Any FO who had one, had to take type ride to upgrade it at their next recurrent. Because I left the 737 before the rule change, I still have an SIC type rating on my certificate. It means absolutely nothing.

All new FOs now do a full type ride on their initial checkout.

View attachment 41094
Click to expand...

Cool. Thanks so much for showing me that.
 
CFI A&P said:
There are type ratings with SIC only privileges, although no longer part of the 121 world. Still common in the 91/135 industry. Some operators let new hires acquire SIC ratings during their probation period then a full PIC later when the company knows or believes that the employee won't take the new type and run out the door with it.
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Sadly, this goes for MX people as well in 91/135. The DOM has the option to send him/herself to school or send the guy/girl on the floor to school. I wouldn't mention it if it hasn't given me heartache in the past, and if I wasn't looking for a school for the people that are going to actually work on the airplane.
 
knot4u said:
Sadly, this goes for MX people as well in 91/135. The DOM has the option to send him/herself to school or send the guy/girl on the floor to school. I wouldn't mention it if it hasn't given me heartache in the past, and if I wasn't looking for a school for the people that are going to actually work on the airplane.
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It honestly seems like it's just easier to avoid 91/135... I know it can be great, better than Delta etc, but wow.
 
CFI A&P said:
There are type ratings with SIC only privileges, although no longer part of the 121 world. Still common in the 91/135 industry. Some operators let new hires acquire SIC ratings during their probation period then a full PIC later when the company knows or believes that the employee won't take the new type and run out the door with it.
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Also an SIC type is just ground school plus 3 bounces in 91/135.

thegriffinpages said:
Some of the questions they ask are about things like approach minimums based on the pilot's hours.
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There are what is called baby mins or a high minimums captain, also hours for crew pairings and certain circumstances that would limit the PIC to all the landings, or needing higher visibility.
Read 121.438 and 121.652
 
z987k said:
Also an SIC type is just ground school plus 3 bounces in 91/135.
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91 - ground school, 3 bounces and single engine ops

135 - same, plus we did all the steeps/stalls/etc, much more in terms of single engine ops and the instrument part (including single engine approaches and go-arounds), although that might have been to satisfy other 135 things
 
z987k said:
Also an SIC type is just ground school plus 3 bounces
Click to expand...

Yup. Just ground school, memory items,
Imitations and three successful bounces.

In the wonderful world of sketchy part 91 operations many people think they can get the SIC sign off from an ATP. That is incorrect unless both the ATP signing off the pilot and the student are conducting training under an approved 135/121 program or the ATP is also an instructor and signing off as a CFI rather than ATP.
 
CFI A&P said:
Yup. Just ground school, memory items,
Imitations and three successful bounces.

In the wonderful world of sketchy part 91 operations many people think they can get the SIC sign off from an ATP. That is incorrect unless both the ATP signing off the pilot and the student are conducting training under an approved 135/121 program or the ATP is also an instructor and signing off as a CFI rather than ATP.
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You should try telling overseas N-Reg operators that - oh yes the DPE will approve it...
 
ahw01 said:
You should try telling overseas N-Reg operators that - oh yes the DPE will approve it...
Click to expand...

I haven’t been involved in the SIC sign offs for awhile but the regulation used to say that any qualified PIC for that type could provide the training. Has that changed?
 
I tend to get offers from people who then go silent. This was to be SIC typed in an N-reg DA-EASY signed off by a UK DPE.

I think an Atp is acceptable in the box for pt 91 but this was a couple of years back.
 
BigZ said:
91 - ground school, 3 bounces and single engine ops

135 - same, plus we did all the steeps/stalls/etc, much more in terms of single engine ops and the instrument part (including single engine approaches and go-arounds), although that might have been to satisfy other 135 things
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Ya the stalls, turns approaches and oei stuff is 135 required for SIC not for the sic type.
 
mshunter said:
I did an SIC type in the Lear when I was 135. It was a joke.
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I did a Lear SIC ride for part 135 and it was really the hardest checkride that I've ever done, even more than my CRJ part 121 ride. No hyperbole there! I have two further SIC types though and I agree, the latest one that I did was a joke. Not even an official checkride for that one.
 
CFI A&P said:
Yup. Just ground school, memory items,
Imitations and three successful bounces.

In the wonderful world of sketchy part 91 operations many people think they can get the SIC sign off from an ATP. That is incorrect unless both the ATP signing off the pilot and the student are conducting training under an approved 135/121 program or the ATP is also an instructor and signing off as a CFI rather than ATP.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree. I don't see anywhere in the regulations stating that the training HAS to be done under part 135/121. I've read this section many times and don't believe it says anything of the sorts. Also, the FAA Office of Chief Council issued issued a letter dated July 2016 about this very thing. It clearly states that a properly qualified and typed part 91 PIC may do ALL the training required by 61.559(b) as well as the required endorsements and signing of 8710. The same PIC is authorized to do all of this even without having any sort of CFI.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or.../2016/Axton - (2016) Legal Interpretation.pdf

So unless there is something I'm missing, its not sketchy at all. It is perfectly legal to do so. I'm not going to argue whether it is prudent or not, but it is definitely legal.
 
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