ATP Sacramento
- Thread starter dnb253
- Start date
Old Pete
Cockpit Authoritarian
akaFlyboy 4
New Member
Careful all I did is report my experience, I appreciate everones input and when I see it backed up by other post then I start putting weight on it and when I deem it necassary I research it more. Just because you have issues with some other JCer don't flock shoot everyone on the blog, You don't know me but I am not anonymousI have been here for a while.
I have lived and worked in Utah for over 13 years and most people are are great most mormans are very fair and helpful people. This kid that interviewed me was just a little cocky (young) and thought he was talking to a fellow LDS member. I have seen many examples of non-mormans being harrassed about their lifestyles, espeacially single non-mormans but I can honestly say those mormans are the bad exceptions to mormans in general.
NJT916
Well-Known Member
While I respect your views on flight training. Is that really necessary?
Agree. Lets try to keep this somewhat mature.
akaFlyboy 4
New Member
I appreciate your adult response on this. As I said in my first post I also had issues with the aircraft appearance ( I am sure the are well maintained) but very beat up in side, The simulator was very dated and this would not bother me so much but ATP fast - yes ATP expensive - yes yes yes. I don't mind the expensive but I did expect more for the money I am spending. I thought the kid's attitude was just showing his age and inexperience, I did not think that would become the focus of my post, but his enexperience is an issue. Again for the money I thought he would be more experienced because he would probably be my Instructor.
N826AW
Well-Known Member
So if one has a positive experience with ATP they are automatically a koolaid drinker? It's pretty easy to hide behind a screen name and an avatar and judge people you've never met. Your so-called "seasoned opinion" appears to be more of an agenda.
I wouldn't blame him if he let his feet do the talking, in fact I assumed he would no longer consider ATP because of the incident. And for the record, if the tables were turned, I would walk away from ATP as well. But not without making some noise that there is an instructor conducting "interviews" making inappropriate comments.
The point of my post was to demonstrate that what the OP experienced is not, in my experience, indicative of a systemic problem at ATP.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"It's pretty easy to hide behind a screen name"
Ahhh....hardly hiding. I'm one of the few people around that's pretty easy to find. I use my real name, real home town, and real job title, at this site.
There are people at this forum who are blind to any critism of ATP. They jump on anyone who posts a negative experience. They are the koolaid drinkers.
I agree that the OP should make a few calls.
And, yeah, I have an agenda. I'd like to see the highest qualified pilot possible moving into the airlines. I don't believe going from PPL to practicing CFI in 90 days in a very good way to bring up the next generation. So...my agenda is to counter the smoke blowing that goes on in this forum.
Feel free to go back and read what the OP said and my response. I was simply asking for one of the ATP guys to address this. The first response was sarcastic which simply proves my point about some of the folks here. Later, several guys made the comment that the OP should contact ATP and complain. That's good advice, I think. Waiting to hear how that went.
Ahhh....hardly hiding. I'm one of the few people around that's pretty easy to find. I use my real name, real home town, and real job title, at this site.
There are people at this forum who are blind to any critism of ATP. They jump on anyone who posts a negative experience. They are the koolaid drinkers.
I agree that the OP should make a few calls.
And, yeah, I have an agenda. I'd like to see the highest qualified pilot possible moving into the airlines. I don't believe going from PPL to practicing CFI in 90 days in a very good way to bring up the next generation. So...my agenda is to counter the smoke blowing that goes on in this forum.
Feel free to go back and read what the OP said and my response. I was simply asking for one of the ATP guys to address this. The first response was sarcastic which simply proves my point about some of the folks here. Later, several guys made the comment that the OP should contact ATP and complain. That's good advice, I think. Waiting to hear how that went.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
The run down of every thread DE727 has participated in:
Step 1. An innocent question is asked
Step 2. A random immature troll post by DE727
Step 3. DE727 gets called out for trolling an innocent thread
Step 4. DE727 responds by playing the victim and posts some variation of "My only concern is the speed of the 90 day program".
But what DE727 really takes pleasure in carefully reviewing every word of every post in the hopes of whipping out a gem like:
That is all DE727 contributes to the ATP forum, no matter how many times he pretends to play the innocent victim who was simply making an innocent comment. But no...it's because we don't like reading differing opinions...uh hu.
It's amazing that this is really what you do with your spare time. Especially considering the standard you hold each ATP employee to who posts. What would your posts here say about the company UPS if we held you to the same standard?
Step 1. An innocent question is asked
Step 2. A random immature troll post by DE727
Step 3. DE727 gets called out for trolling an innocent thread
Step 4. DE727 responds by playing the victim and posts some variation of "My only concern is the speed of the 90 day program".
But what DE727 really takes pleasure in carefully reviewing every word of every post in the hopes of whipping out a gem like:
That is all DE727 contributes to the ATP forum, no matter how many times he pretends to play the innocent victim who was simply making an innocent comment. But no...it's because we don't like reading differing opinions...uh hu.
It's amazing that this is really what you do with your spare time. Especially considering the standard you hold each ATP employee to who posts. What would your posts here say about the company UPS if we held you to the same standard?
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
Its pretty funny though that our DE works for your same company, in fact I have heard he was YOUR check-airman. He is probably one of the most knowledgable guys, obviously because he is a DE and has been in the industry for awhile. He obviously doesnt think that programs that are fast paced are a bad thing. He always leaves us after checkrides with a "give me a call if you have ANY questions" and is always giving us advice.
Why cant you do the same and just accept that things are different now? There are more ways than one to get your licenses. It just bugs me that your basically making me (us?) feel like our way is wrong.
Its going to be funny when in a few years the people who went through the 90 day program make their way up to UPS. But I guess your still going to look down on them as lessers.
-Rob
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
He's not just my check-airman, he recently became my boss. I invited him to this site after my Capts line check 2 years ago, but he seems to have never posted here. One thing is for sure, Tom's a class act. Tom's job is to make sure the FAA min standard is met. I'm of the belief that a higher standard would be a good thing.
It used to be that min standard was fine cause guys would take time between the ratings for the seasoning process to take place. The 90 day program doesn't allow for that. Especially when you consider that the new ATP CFI was a PPL 90 days ago having never left the academy enviornment. That's what is different from the "old days".
"Why cant you do the same and just accept that things are different now?"
So, what's different? Are you saying the standards are lower than they used to be and I should accept it cause Tom does?
I've been around as long as Tom. We are the same age. I stand by my opinion on what's right and wrong in flight training. He's perfectly entitled to his, as are you.
I can't wait to see him again to see if he feels the need to "educate" me on what I should think, as you seem to wish he would. Now that will be interesting....
It used to be that min standard was fine cause guys would take time between the ratings for the seasoning process to take place. The 90 day program doesn't allow for that. Especially when you consider that the new ATP CFI was a PPL 90 days ago having never left the academy enviornment. That's what is different from the "old days".
"Why cant you do the same and just accept that things are different now?"
So, what's different? Are you saying the standards are lower than they used to be and I should accept it cause Tom does?
I've been around as long as Tom. We are the same age. I stand by my opinion on what's right and wrong in flight training. He's perfectly entitled to his, as are you.
I can't wait to see him again to see if he feels the need to "educate" me on what I should think, as you seem to wish he would. Now that will be interesting....
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
No, he plays an extremely important role here. Without him, there would be be very few posts here critical of ATP, which if I were a total newbie student pilot I'd probably think meant that ATP was the single best way to become a safe, proficient airline pilot. Don counters that pretty well, and I think it's extremely important for someone to point out that spending 90 days in intense training doesn't automatically make you a fantastic aviator.
But like Don, I really don't have any real-world experience either, so I'm pretty much a troll.
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
Agreed on all points.
What kind of seasoning? Spending money flying around?
I did my PPL at the FBOs, as did most of the ATP guys Im in here with now. CFIs and Students. We all agree that the FBOs sucked. They took too much time, and eventually wasted our money. I cant tell you how many times I got screwed because a plane was broken, or someone took it for too long.
No. Im refering to the way in which you can go about training. Back in the day it used to be FBOs or ERAU (not sure when university's began teaching though) and it just seems like your old fashioned and havent seen that there are others way now. Things are changing, get used to it.
Where did I say that he needed to educate you? I wouldnt make a statement like that. I do understand the level your at, and I hope to be at it one day.
But I hope that when I am there, instead of bashing the way the young guys are coming up. I would be more into helping them achieve success and not make them feel less because of how they are doing things.
-Rob
N826AW
Well-Known Member
I will only speak for myself, but I think others share the sentiment, that there is a difference between a counter-point and condescention. Most of Don's posts are informative and beneficial no matter the context. But often times I discredit the advice because his comments are perceived to be condescending. It is difficult to read tone in an electronic format which makes it even tougher to gauge where he was coming from.
Anyway back on topic, akaFlyboy, I would give JAX a call and let them know about the interview as well as how you felt about the SAC location. Someone down there is interested in your experience. The instructor that gives the tour faxes JAX a form with your information and the tour. Not mention I get an email every sunday morning asking about what I think about the apartments (mind you I don't live in them). I think they'd be interested in hearing about discrimination.
Anyway back on topic, akaFlyboy, I would give JAX a call and let them know about the interview as well as how you felt about the SAC location. Someone down there is interested in your experience. The instructor that gives the tour faxes JAX a form with your information and the tour. Not mention I get an email every sunday morning asking about what I think about the apartments (mind you I don't live in them). I think they'd be interested in hearing about discrimination.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Back in the day it used to be FBOs or ERAU (not sure when university's began teaching though) and it just seems like your old fashioned and havent seen that there are others way now. Things are changing, get used to it."
Ahhh...ATP has now officially reinvented the wheel. Now I get it....
Ahhh...ATP has now officially reinvented the wheel. Now I get it....
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
No, they have just setup a new path for people who want to earn their licenses in a non-traditional way.
Don, I just re-read your "How I made it to UPS" deal, and I can see that the people who go to places like ATP and you, are just always going to have a difference of a opinion.
And on that note, I hope one day Im in the right seat of a UPS aircraft and your my captain, that way we will never get bored. I can only imagine 5 hours of non-stop argument about flight training these days while at FL340.
-Rob
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"But often times I discredit the advice because his comments are perceived to be condescending."
Well...that's a shame. I somehow seem to always be defending myself here. That said, I'd bet the folks that are offended by my posts tend to be ATP guys. And, those throwing the mud....tend to be ATP guys...
Well...that's a shame. I somehow seem to always be defending myself here. That said, I'd bet the folks that are offended by my posts tend to be ATP guys. And, those throwing the mud....tend to be ATP guys...
akaFlyboy 4
New Member
Not sure I felt discriminated, My description of a rant must differ from most. But I understand that when doing an interview for potential customers, you should never discuss religion. Or your disapproval of other peoples life styles. If we were just shoot-in the breeze yea sure, but during an interview? He is just a young kid with little experience. Maybe people should not be so touchy about these issues but It was his lack of experience displayed during the interview that concerned me the most. Because like someone else pointed out he was probably going to be my instructor.
For the apartments, from the outside the looked very nice. It was the planes I really was disappointed in, and the Sim looked very dated. They probably function fine. My issue is that when I am spending so much and going to learn this information so Fast I expected better equipment. I realize they are training aircraft but these looked very tired.