ATP CFI pay
- Thread starter sofakingbad
- Start date
blee256
Well-Known Member
well, in Cali min. wage is 6.75 an hour.
HEre is where I have a question about ATP's CFI pay. Its says somehwere on ATP's site that their instructors' are one of the highest paid in the industry. And most of their work is in Multi engines. Do MEI's get paid more than just regualr CFI's?
Pan Am pays their instrucotrs $14 an hour. If they teach 100 hours in a month thats 1400. thats 40% more than ATP's instructors. and in 90 days pan instructors get a raise to $15.
Comair Instructors get 10 an hour. And they say its a little low, but you do get the travel benifts and stuff. So for ATP's instructors to get paid 1000 gross is nowhere near the Top of the industry's pay schedule.
So whats the deal?
-Brian
HEre is where I have a question about ATP's CFI pay. Its says somehwere on ATP's site that their instructors' are one of the highest paid in the industry. And most of their work is in Multi engines. Do MEI's get paid more than just regualr CFI's?
Pan Am pays their instrucotrs $14 an hour. If they teach 100 hours in a month thats 1400. thats 40% more than ATP's instructors. and in 90 days pan instructors get a raise to $15.
Comair Instructors get 10 an hour. And they say its a little low, but you do get the travel benifts and stuff. So for ATP's instructors to get paid 1000 gross is nowhere near the Top of the industry's pay schedule.
So whats the deal?
-Brian
... highest paid MULTIENGINE instructor jobs in the industry. Prior to 9/11, I understand that the pay was higher- that caveat aside, ATP's model is one-of-a-kind: ALL multi-engine flying [without any lawsuits pending for any reason whatsoever, for those of you inclined to counter that claim with a small outfit in Fla who "aviate, not simulate"]. ATP is the only one out there that does what it does, so whatever they pay their staff is the highest paying job of it's kind.
Whatever.... *yawn*
I'm not going to bitch about my pay. Every single waking day somebody submits their rez or phones in asking for a job, not asking what we pay. It's a damned fine place to earn multi time, period. Besides, you DON'T have to instruct for ATP.
Minimum wage is predicated on a per-hour pay schedule. It's an irrelevant notion to contract employees or salaried employees.
Whatever.... *yawn*
I'm not going to bitch about my pay. Every single waking day somebody submits their rez or phones in asking for a job, not asking what we pay. It's a damned fine place to earn multi time, period. Besides, you DON'T have to instruct for ATP.
Minimum wage is predicated on a per-hour pay schedule. It's an irrelevant notion to contract employees or salaried employees.
aloft
New Member
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Minimum wage is predicated on a per-hour pay schedule. It's an irrelevant notion to contract employees or salaried employees.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, but it's a valid benchmark for comparison nonetheless, as is the poverty line.
As far as the "I'd do it for free" argument, those who'd teach for free are the same people who'll PFT or cross a picket line--all are equally damaging to the profession. Something to think about.
Minimum wage is predicated on a per-hour pay schedule. It's an irrelevant notion to contract employees or salaried employees.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, but it's a valid benchmark for comparison nonetheless, as is the poverty line.
As far as the "I'd do it for free" argument, those who'd teach for free are the same people who'll PFT or cross a picket line--all are equally damaging to the profession. Something to think about.
arizonaflyer
New Member
actually 1k per month isn't that bad. at 40 hours a week its 6.25 per hour, 200 a month rent is very good as long as there is no utillity bills to worry about.i agree the per hour rate sad, but since it's salary you still get paid if you don't make the hours due to weather, students, etc. at least its not free.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Then they realize ATP instructors can fly those planes better than themselves in the 172 they have beaucoup time in.... and they're building all that time in a twin... They really return from that first flight with egg on their face.
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Ha, Ha, Ha, HA!!...Oh Man, that's just hilarious..The world famous ATP 90 day wonder, you get what you pay for.. If you guys were so good there wouldn't be a waiting list to get in. I know for a FACT that several airlines factor the ATP multi time because so much of it is "safety-pilot time". Its pretty obvious from your posts that all your care about is building multi time at any cost, most probably your students..
Then they realize ATP instructors can fly those planes better than themselves in the 172 they have beaucoup time in.... and they're building all that time in a twin... They really return from that first flight with egg on their face.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ha, Ha, Ha, HA!!...Oh Man, that's just hilarious..The world famous ATP 90 day wonder, you get what you pay for.. If you guys were so good there wouldn't be a waiting list to get in. I know for a FACT that several airlines factor the ATP multi time because so much of it is "safety-pilot time". Its pretty obvious from your posts that all your care about is building multi time at any cost, most probably your students..
Wha-hey!
I'll throw out the 37 hours of PIC AS SAFETY PILOT time when I start submitting my rez- who gives a rat's arse. I won't need it. As far as challenging me as a CFI and calling me a 90-day wonder?
Fine. I'll play ad hominem:
Whatever delusional wittle-bitty reality you are bungling around in doesn't matter to me; I know that I'm turning out a quality product on quality equipment on a daily basis. Certainly, there are folks who just can't do it, but keep trying. Certainly this applies to every single flight school. Ethically, ATP behaves with a set of clear-cut assurances that simply don't exist anywhere else. I've seen it with my own eyes, and you are welcome to read any other school's forums and notice a distinction in the students' posts between this one and those. If you think I'd recommend a sub-standard pilot up for a checkride, you're once again deluding yourself. If you think I'd let loose a pilot that is dangerous, you're mistaken.
As far as impugning our safety pilot time AS AN INSTRUCTOR? Re-read the FARs. Slowly. Read them aloud. Run your finger along the sentences, and go back over the ones you can't "in-ter-pret so good". You're confused, somewhere.
What the heck does this: "If you guys were so good, there wouldn't be a waiting list to get in" mean, exactly? To me, waiting lists seem to illustrate this zany thing called "overhwleming demand." You see, there are only a few positions available for instructors, and an overwhelming number of folks that want to fill them. Now follow this slowly: If a lot more folks want the positions than are available, THEY MUST BE WANTED BADLY, RIGHT? If you mean we aren't getting hired because they suck and therefore there is a backlog- you're wishing and fishing.
The fact is that any kind of multiengine pilot employer, or more specifically their insurance company, doesn't give a wet slap about how much time you've earned bouncing around the pattern in a 172, including the ones you allegedly know something about in some vague form or fashion. That's a long-winded way of calling you out, incidentally.
Whatever else you want to hurl my way, I'll laugh it off. Trust me- the last laugh is mine.
I'll throw out the 37 hours of PIC AS SAFETY PILOT time when I start submitting my rez- who gives a rat's arse. I won't need it. As far as challenging me as a CFI and calling me a 90-day wonder?
Fine. I'll play ad hominem:
Whatever delusional wittle-bitty reality you are bungling around in doesn't matter to me; I know that I'm turning out a quality product on quality equipment on a daily basis. Certainly, there are folks who just can't do it, but keep trying. Certainly this applies to every single flight school. Ethically, ATP behaves with a set of clear-cut assurances that simply don't exist anywhere else. I've seen it with my own eyes, and you are welcome to read any other school's forums and notice a distinction in the students' posts between this one and those. If you think I'd recommend a sub-standard pilot up for a checkride, you're once again deluding yourself. If you think I'd let loose a pilot that is dangerous, you're mistaken.
As far as impugning our safety pilot time AS AN INSTRUCTOR? Re-read the FARs. Slowly. Read them aloud. Run your finger along the sentences, and go back over the ones you can't "in-ter-pret so good". You're confused, somewhere.
What the heck does this: "If you guys were so good, there wouldn't be a waiting list to get in" mean, exactly? To me, waiting lists seem to illustrate this zany thing called "overhwleming demand." You see, there are only a few positions available for instructors, and an overwhelming number of folks that want to fill them. Now follow this slowly: If a lot more folks want the positions than are available, THEY MUST BE WANTED BADLY, RIGHT? If you mean we aren't getting hired because they suck and therefore there is a backlog- you're wishing and fishing.
The fact is that any kind of multiengine pilot employer, or more specifically their insurance company, doesn't give a wet slap about how much time you've earned bouncing around the pattern in a 172, including the ones you allegedly know something about in some vague form or fashion. That's a long-winded way of calling you out, incidentally.
Whatever else you want to hurl my way, I'll laugh it off. Trust me- the last laugh is mine.
Sig,
I've been reading this forum for quite some time, but only registered today because of your posts in this thread.
I am a relatively new CFI/CFII and will be going to ATP to do my multi-commerical add-on in less than a month.
Frankly, I hope the instructor I work with is not as arrogant as you. I work hard at what I do, bouncing around the pattern in a Cessna 152 as part-time instructor. I have some really wonderful students that I wouldn't trade for all the multi time in the world. You make it sound as if this is highly demeaning work and it is not. Without people like myself, willing to do this as a choice, you would not have gotten your Private license to begin with. I know ATP is now offering the PPSEL along with the ACP program, but it's still Skyhawk time, and *someone* has to teach in them.
My motives for doing the multi add-on followed by the MEI are not to build time for the airlines, but to teach. For the rest of my life. And I don't feel any shame in saying so. I'd like to be able to teach in anything from a Sparrowhawk to a Hawker.
Just because I am a CFI/CFII and only have 4.9 hours of multi time at the moment doesn't mean I, or anyone else in my position, is a terrible pilot. I would bet there are some people out there who think they're better than you when they show up, but please try not to lump us all into that category. You're global statements make it sound as if everyone comes to an ATP location a chump looking to justify his/her own job, and only by the superior and perfect instruction of people like you may they see the light.
Stop it. Some of those people you assume are asking a question because they think you are inferior, are really just asking for information because life has a way of creeping up on you if you don't watch out. And, unfortunately, no one gets out of life alive, so it's best to seek information that will allow it to continue as long as possible, no? So, they might consider their alternatives and what is best for them?
I have struggled and studied for 4 and a 1/2 years to get where I am and am damn proud of having gotten this far. I am not in debt, I have 650 hours in a lot of different aircraft (Citabrias, Christen Eagles, Cessnas [including a 310P], Pipers, Grummans, and more). I've actually had some fun along the way - Flown a T-craft out of Lake Hood in Alaska, learned how to fly inverted, been in an 1800 mile cross-country air race, landed a friend's Citabria from the back seat on a 1600 ft. private, snow-covered grass strip with trees at both ends.
Do you think maybe I just might be able to fly a little even with my meager twin time?
ATP is on my list because it's cost effective and I believe I'll get competent instruction for my money, but I certainly don't anticipate that it'll be the best instruction I've ever received. The CFII/MEI I work with has 27 years of full time instructing experience (30,000+ hours total time, about 10,000 multi), but his rates on the Seneca are such that doing both the multi and the MEI with him would cost about $10K by the time I was done. I have no doubt that you are at least a competent instructor if not a very good one. But I would hesitate greatly to compare your skills to his, and I actually think it is rude of you to assume that ATP's program is so miraculous that everyone comes out so superior in skill that no one else can measure up. In reality, pilot skill has more to do with how the student is wired rather than the instructor. If a student is well motivated, takes the time to understand, tries hard and tries harder after a failure, and has good judgement, he/she will most likely do well enough. A well-structured program (which ATP appears to be and why I chose it for my add-on) can only help. A good instructor knows how to get even the most reticent student to care, and can subtly humble the overconfident without making them feel as if they have "egg on their face." (pardon the cliche, but, you can catch more flies with honey, no?)
I know your goals are different than mine and for you, the multi time is golden. But don't assume that any employer is going to totally discount the time and experience someone gains by flying with students in a single. ALL experience is valuable. Students teach patience, perserverance, and determination no matter what kind of airplane they fly. They develop an instructor's ability to judge people's strength, weaknesses, and moods, and help them gain better insights into human nature which may translate well into CRM. Remember positive transfer of information from the FOI? You're right in that an insurance company wants to see the right numbers, but that's not completely true of an employer. They're most likely going to be looking for the whole package. So, you might want to give that a thought as well as trying to make sure your logbook looks good.
The farthest I'd possibly like to go is corporate flying. Maybe a Lear or a Citation is in my future, but I don't know. I just continue to take every opportunity that comes my way and put it in my bag full of experience, grateful for having been able to participate.
After having read this forum and others for quite some time (about February of this year), I decided on ATP, but was put off by some of the arrogance I heard from people who think the ATP way is the *only* way and it weighed in on my list of pros and cons. Just be aware that you're not necessarily marketing the best aspects of the school when you respond as you have.
Carolyn
I've been reading this forum for quite some time, but only registered today because of your posts in this thread.
I am a relatively new CFI/CFII and will be going to ATP to do my multi-commerical add-on in less than a month.
Frankly, I hope the instructor I work with is not as arrogant as you. I work hard at what I do, bouncing around the pattern in a Cessna 152 as part-time instructor. I have some really wonderful students that I wouldn't trade for all the multi time in the world. You make it sound as if this is highly demeaning work and it is not. Without people like myself, willing to do this as a choice, you would not have gotten your Private license to begin with. I know ATP is now offering the PPSEL along with the ACP program, but it's still Skyhawk time, and *someone* has to teach in them.
My motives for doing the multi add-on followed by the MEI are not to build time for the airlines, but to teach. For the rest of my life. And I don't feel any shame in saying so. I'd like to be able to teach in anything from a Sparrowhawk to a Hawker.
Just because I am a CFI/CFII and only have 4.9 hours of multi time at the moment doesn't mean I, or anyone else in my position, is a terrible pilot. I would bet there are some people out there who think they're better than you when they show up, but please try not to lump us all into that category. You're global statements make it sound as if everyone comes to an ATP location a chump looking to justify his/her own job, and only by the superior and perfect instruction of people like you may they see the light.
Stop it. Some of those people you assume are asking a question because they think you are inferior, are really just asking for information because life has a way of creeping up on you if you don't watch out. And, unfortunately, no one gets out of life alive, so it's best to seek information that will allow it to continue as long as possible, no? So, they might consider their alternatives and what is best for them?
I have struggled and studied for 4 and a 1/2 years to get where I am and am damn proud of having gotten this far. I am not in debt, I have 650 hours in a lot of different aircraft (Citabrias, Christen Eagles, Cessnas [including a 310P], Pipers, Grummans, and more). I've actually had some fun along the way - Flown a T-craft out of Lake Hood in Alaska, learned how to fly inverted, been in an 1800 mile cross-country air race, landed a friend's Citabria from the back seat on a 1600 ft. private, snow-covered grass strip with trees at both ends.
Do you think maybe I just might be able to fly a little even with my meager twin time?
ATP is on my list because it's cost effective and I believe I'll get competent instruction for my money, but I certainly don't anticipate that it'll be the best instruction I've ever received. The CFII/MEI I work with has 27 years of full time instructing experience (30,000+ hours total time, about 10,000 multi), but his rates on the Seneca are such that doing both the multi and the MEI with him would cost about $10K by the time I was done. I have no doubt that you are at least a competent instructor if not a very good one. But I would hesitate greatly to compare your skills to his, and I actually think it is rude of you to assume that ATP's program is so miraculous that everyone comes out so superior in skill that no one else can measure up. In reality, pilot skill has more to do with how the student is wired rather than the instructor. If a student is well motivated, takes the time to understand, tries hard and tries harder after a failure, and has good judgement, he/she will most likely do well enough. A well-structured program (which ATP appears to be and why I chose it for my add-on) can only help. A good instructor knows how to get even the most reticent student to care, and can subtly humble the overconfident without making them feel as if they have "egg on their face." (pardon the cliche, but, you can catch more flies with honey, no?)
I know your goals are different than mine and for you, the multi time is golden. But don't assume that any employer is going to totally discount the time and experience someone gains by flying with students in a single. ALL experience is valuable. Students teach patience, perserverance, and determination no matter what kind of airplane they fly. They develop an instructor's ability to judge people's strength, weaknesses, and moods, and help them gain better insights into human nature which may translate well into CRM. Remember positive transfer of information from the FOI? You're right in that an insurance company wants to see the right numbers, but that's not completely true of an employer. They're most likely going to be looking for the whole package. So, you might want to give that a thought as well as trying to make sure your logbook looks good.
The farthest I'd possibly like to go is corporate flying. Maybe a Lear or a Citation is in my future, but I don't know. I just continue to take every opportunity that comes my way and put it in my bag full of experience, grateful for having been able to participate.
After having read this forum and others for quite some time (about February of this year), I decided on ATP, but was put off by some of the arrogance I heard from people who think the ATP way is the *only* way and it weighed in on my list of pros and cons. Just be aware that you're not necessarily marketing the best aspects of the school when you respond as you have.
Carolyn
I haven't really considered Ari-Ben because much of what I read about them was not good. Former student opinions were really horrible and I heard more than once that their equipment is only marginally airworthy. Or course, I don't have any real, first-hand experience with them, but it was enough to make me raise an eyebrow.
I did have a friend that went through the ACP program at ATP and had very good things to say about the equipment. He hated his CFII for the Private-multi and IFR portion, but liked the ones he worked with for the commercial, et. al. I think it's really the luck of the draw, but he did get what he wanted out of the program. Which is another reason I decided on it. I know there aren't any hidden costs or fees, and I will get the hours I pay for. I do self-study on the ground school anyway, so that's not an issue for me.
There are an awful lot of former ATP students who are happy with the program, so I figure they can't be completely wrong. I just wonder if there's something in the water that makes them all come out sounding like a programmed advertisement
(my friend included...we had some doozy arguments for a couple of months).
I don't necessarily think you've made an error in judgement. Just make sure you've really thoroughly researched several schools before making your decision.
Given no cost restraints, I'd happily spend the money with my current CFII/MEI to finish my training, but I just can't afford to do both the multi-comm and MEI. So, I decided to split the difference and do the multi-comm at ATP and the MEI with him. And I'm getting tired of taking checkrides, so I thought I'd see if I can get the last two over with a little quicker so I can again take time to enjoy myself. Like using some of the money I won't be spending on training to go do some acro in an Extra.
Carolyn
I did have a friend that went through the ACP program at ATP and had very good things to say about the equipment. He hated his CFII for the Private-multi and IFR portion, but liked the ones he worked with for the commercial, et. al. I think it's really the luck of the draw, but he did get what he wanted out of the program. Which is another reason I decided on it. I know there aren't any hidden costs or fees, and I will get the hours I pay for. I do self-study on the ground school anyway, so that's not an issue for me.
There are an awful lot of former ATP students who are happy with the program, so I figure they can't be completely wrong. I just wonder if there's something in the water that makes them all come out sounding like a programmed advertisement
I don't necessarily think you've made an error in judgement. Just make sure you've really thoroughly researched several schools before making your decision.
Given no cost restraints, I'd happily spend the money with my current CFII/MEI to finish my training, but I just can't afford to do both the multi-comm and MEI. So, I decided to split the difference and do the multi-comm at ATP and the MEI with him. And I'm getting tired of taking checkrides, so I thought I'd see if I can get the last two over with a little quicker so I can again take time to enjoy myself. Like using some of the money I won't be spending on training to go do some acro in an Extra.
Carolyn
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I guess the thing that really gets me is why pay $32k, when I get get it for $17.5k?
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CMARTIN, is the $12K you save worth it if the equipment brakes down (or worse yet) you have an accident and die?
I've never been grounded because of bad equipment or equipment failure. Take into account also the duration of the program. If you should want to work for ATP as an instructor...you'll have a hell of a lot better chance being hired at ATP than Ari-Ben. With all of ATPs locations around the country (versus how-ever many for Ari-Ben) I think you'll have a lot better chance of getting hired as a CFI once you complete the program. Also, you have to figure in the cost of living if you go to Ari-Ben and having to find and pay for an apartment, and other costs of living. Then there's the question of instructors. Are they all great at ATP...probably not. Are Ari-Ben's instructors any better/worse? Probably not. A CFI-I imparts his/her own personality into his teaching method. So it's not necessarily the school as much as the individual. You can always request a different instructor. I can tell you though that all the guys in the DFW office are the best around and you'll have a good time here too. But that's my opinion. Hope this helps.
SigAV8R
I guess the thing that really gets me is why pay $32k, when I get get it for $17.5k?
[/ QUOTE ]
CMARTIN, is the $12K you save worth it if the equipment brakes down (or worse yet) you have an accident and die?
SigAV8R
