ATP CFI pay

[sofakingbad]

I've done a search and can't find any results. Does anybody know how much ATP pays its CFIs? Also, for the guys manning the phones, what is their compensation?(hours in the seminole, pb & j sandwiches?) Thanks for any info!

 

[Sig]

If the salary as a CFI matters, you're in the wrong business.

They're gaining multi-engine time. You have any idea how many shmoes out there would do it for FREE?

Put it this way: My instructor hit the 1200 hr mins for 135 last month.

1,000 [ONE THOUSAND] hours of that was multi PIC.

I doubt I'll ever be able to work for them (location needs), but I sure wouldn't care about the meager $$$.

 

[bluelake]

Sig,


I do not believe that sofakingbad asked for a professional brief on the value of multi-time, or clarification that a comma betwen the one and the zero means thousand, nor a quick computer-desk-armchair assessment of whether he/she is in the 'wrong business', ok?

When a companies' web site has the following:

"ATP offers one of the highest paying multi-engine flight instructing jobs in the industry. Instructing in multi-engine aircraft builds qualifications unattainable through pattern work in single-engine aircraft"....

... then it is a fair question.

 

[aloft]

What I've heard (though things may have changed):
Aside from tons of multi time, base pay runs $800 the first month, then goes up $100/mo. each month thereafter. On top of this are bonuses for proctoring written exams, on-time student completions, stuff like that. One former ATP instructor (and JetCareers poster) tolld me your paycheck can be twice your base pay thanks to the bonuses. Also, instructors can stay in ATP's housing for $200/mo.

Look at it as being a camp counselor and it'll make more sense. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

What I don't know is the tax situation; I understand all their instructors are "independent contractors", which implies that ATP offers no benefits whatsoever--not even workman's comp--and places the burden of self-employment taxes on the instructors. Look at the bright side--you'll be used to poor wages and work rules when you get to your first regional job! /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

 

[sofakingbad]

Sig,
I'm sure glad your instructor hit the 135 mins last month, but I didn't ask "How many hours did Sig's instructor get last month?" I asked a question I coudn't find the answer to over the internet. Its fine if you don't "care about the meager $$$", but I'm comparing many things, including salaries/benefits between different schools. Looks like aloft has some good poop though and for that I'm grateful.

 

[Tbone]

Sig - you were a bit quick to jump all over the $ question. I was wondering the same thing, yet I'm already sold on the benes of instructing in the multi. The fact that we're all kicking around in this thread means we understand the pros of going to a school like ATP. However there are still bills to pay - like the student loan payments! I was curious as to whether I'd be able to afford Kraft Mac & cheese or have to skimp and go with the ramen, yet the $ as a CFI is obviously not what we're getting into this for. We all know the pay sux no matter where you are, it's just a question of how much it sucks - a pretty legit question in my book.

Keep the posts coming though Sig, your insight has been helpful!

 

[ncm4y]

I asked Socal this question a few months ago and I believe he told me the pay was $1,000/month, no benefits, plus bonuses for the on-time completion etc.

I may be wrong, this is from memory.

 

[Sig]

Hmm.

I ... changed my tune and edited this post. It's been bugging me since I posted it, so I de-posted that fat bastard and apologize for lambasting the Sofa King.

So, there.

/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Don't pick a school because of what they pay their CFI's- pick a school because it is the best fit during training. Count on making peanuts, period... so just make sure you're building what you need immediately, quickly and happily.

 

[shooter13]

Jeez Sig, you aren't flying soon are you? Maybe you should get some counseling if you get that on edge by what appears to be a very straight forward question. Just my thoughts. If the pay is $800 a month then so be it. You are right they get all the multi. If it is 2000 a month, even better. The purpose of these boards is information exchange so just answer the guys question or if you don't feel like it, don't.

 

[Sig]

You're right- the offense I took is personally mine. I'm sorry about that, and apologize to the forum at large.

It's just a trip to me to hear that question asked! It's entirely irrelevant as far as it being a criterion for choosing a school. Consider the first year after training... training, like I do, and any pay is irrelevant. You're a student until you have an ATP ticket in your wallet, IMHO.

Hell YES it is difficult to live on meager wages. Hell NO it doesn't last long. If that is still a point of contention for someone, that someone needs to find another career.

My daughter was born June 6, and three days later I was criss-crossing the nation on my XC phase. Obviously, wages will impact me for the next year or so, but you have to commit to this industry to get anything out of it. Picking your wages as a CFI waaayyyyy before you are even qualified to take the checkride is extremely arrogant to people like me. Just do it, or don't.

That's exactly why I've been planning this for two years now, and I'm able to take care of my brand-new family with a HUGE loan debt on low wages.

 

[d_gelling]

Simply by that argument alone, you already factored the CFI pay into the increased size of the loan you chose to take out. You therefore just validated his questioning the pay in advance. /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

If you knew tha pay would have been more, you would have adjusted the size of your loan. It is then not out of line for this person to begin planning his future, or his present situation.

 

[Sig]

What? Hmm.

No, I still can't see what you are referring to- adjusting loan size? I spent two years squirrelling away cash, paying off my cars, flying a little here and there to stay current, zeroing out credit card debt, and I took out the barest minimum loan and opted for the interest-only payments for three months. All that I spent preparing for the lean-times (heh) could have easily paid for flight school, but I got a loan anyway... make sense?

Erroll and Jim will both tell you pay as much as you can in cash first, to delay disbursement so the interest is delayed too. In other words, keep that loan as small as possible- only pull what you absolutely need. Count on what money you have in the bank- not what you'll be making in the future. What happens if you actually do get hired, but you don't report to JAX for a couple of months? It's tempting to add a few thou to the loan, but I just couldn't do that.

Here's why I didn't take out the full amount... actually, 25K. With my interest rate (they start pretty low, I got the lowest) over the lifetime of the loan (15 yrs), my loan debt is nearly 50 grand.


It doubled.


If I had bad credit, took out the full 38K, my debt would be HEEYOOOOGE. Ginormous. But It's the only capital debt I have right now. Everything else is mopped up tight.

I don't need to be paid as a CFI to survive that first year. That's the way I planned it, that's the only way to go. Do that, and anything they pay is gravy, right?

Do you see why I got a little incensed?

 

[sofakingbad]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I don't need to be paid as a CFI to survive that first year. That's the way I planned it, that's the only way to go. Do that, and anything they pay is gravy, right?

Do you see why I got a little incensed?


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually Sig, I still don't think a simple question should raise your blood pressure that much. The way you planned it is certainly not the only way to go either! Some people actually like to get paid for their work. If you work for free as a CFI, you are saying what you do is equal to volunteer work. I don't think you'll find many CFIs who would support that idea. ATP is without a doubt a great place to build time in the twin. But, if they pay their CFIs $5 a month with no benefits, I would seek another school to do my training and look for the CFI job at that school. What about you?
/ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif

 

[shooter13]

I don't really see why you got mad but it is clear that you have done some really good planning. That is pretty much what I am trying to do during my last couple of years in the Navy. Keeping the loan small and delaying it as long as you can makes good sense as well. When I start, the only debts we will have is the house. I may delay another year to get it paid off as well. Who knows. In any case, I hope my wife gets a better job so she can be my sugar momma...

 

[Sig]

You know what? You're exactly right- the question shouldn't have irked me so. I've been stuck on my reaction for a while, and I've finally figured it out.

Remember the attitude adjustment I mentioned? These guys come into the office with CFI/II tickets, and want an MEI add-on. The very first question these fellas ask is the pay... and I know for a fact they aren't making much more at all. In light of their marginally higher wages, they feel somehow superior to the guy across the desk.

Then they realize ATP instructors can fly those planes better than themselves in the 172 they have beaucoup time in.... and they're building all that time in a twin... They really return from that first flight with egg on their face.

I take it personally when they do that. It happens too often.

Didn't mean to jump all over the pernt, there....

 

[bluelake]

Sig,

Your comment: "No, I still can't see what you are referring to- adjusting loan size? I spent two years squirrelling away cash, paying off my cars, flying a little here and there to stay current, zeroing out credit card debt, and I took out the barest minimum loan and opted for the interest-only payments for three months. All that I spent preparing for the lean-times (heh) could have easily paid for flight school, but I got a loan anyway... make sense"

... my situation EXACTLY. So, thanks for that perspective.

I am not sure if I am adding anything here, but I guess the way I am looking at it is the fact that even after training and lets say I get hired on by ATP... well for the time I am working for ATP, I am LOSING money.

Follw with me for a moment: there are two ways to look at this thing: like an accountant and like an economist. The economist looks at the value and benefits against the investment. The accountant looks at the revenue stream, black or red. Your first post here is an economic assessment.... and no doubt you are right... that multi-time is in-calculable in terms of career effort.

nevertheless, the accountant approach is necessary TOO because when someone takes on a lot of debt and gets hired by ATP, guess what, theyre not all of a sudden making money, their still LOSING money in terms of cash flow and bills. SOOOOOOOOOOO, for me, I would like to know how much money to PLAN on losing while I live my life and eat and breath as a CFI with ANY employer.

The general answer to that question helps plan loans, savings, debt management, etc....

Make sense? In your defense, I shoulda just said this earlier on an not ripped on ya, but hey...

Bluelake

 

[Sig]

Wahey!

Yes- I just planned on being able to feed myself! Sucks for the time being.

But when I'm interviewing for a regional and they see that just 160 hours of my time is single engine... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Adlerson]

The pay's ok.
(I'm a poet and I know it.)

You basically make $1000 a month. Then, if you live in one of their apartments they dock $200 for that.
The only bonus these days is if your student passes the v-ride on the first try.

Not something to get fat on.
(Now, if only it actually helped you loose weight..)

Helge

 

[Sig]

WooHOO! Thanks for finally answering the question for the forum. I couldn't do it.

See you next week... I'm the ACP from Dallas doing the CFI in JAX...

Zack

PS: Harold says you owe him some wings.

 

[farwellbooth]

Is that $1000 gross?